Status of Women Committee on Feb. 26th, 2013

[Ian McPhail]

The problem is that the data are incomplete. So the short answer to your question is no, it's not possible. That's why we have strongly recommended that improved data collection be implemented, because it's only—

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

I have to stop you there, Mr. McPhail. I am sorry. Ms. Day's time is up.

We have one last round of questions.

Ms. Young, you have five minutes.

[Wai Young, Conservative, Vancouver South, BC]

I'd like to thank the panel for coming today because as a member of Parliament from B.C., this issue is obviously very top of mind and important to us. I've been very, very impressed by your proactive and measured response to this very large issue. The fact that you went ahead and did this report is quite incredible, including the fact you have statistics now and some concrete evidence with which to back up your reporting to us. I think that's very commendable.

I wanted to quote your conclusion. You say the following in your report: The RCMP bears a responsibility to foster public trust to the extent possible, and when the public perceives that the organization is unwilling to adequately protect and discipline its own employees, it is difficult to see how their interactions with the police and trust in the organization would remain unaffected. It is for this reason that swift and effective action must be taken by the RCMP in terms of dealing with workplace conflict and harassment, and taken in a manner that engenders the confidence of both members and the public.

And of course we fully support that conclusion, which is part reason why we're doing this study.

I know that you've spoken about this earlier, but I want to give you some more time. Does Bill C-42 answer this question of restoring public trust and give you, as a large organization with some of these issues, the tools to address the issues found within the force?

[Ian McPhail]

Very simply, I believe that Bill C-42 will give the commissioner of the RCMP the tools that he or she requires to perform his or her duties. It will provide the tools that we believe are necessary to enable the commissioner to streamline an extremely convoluted process.

You clearly reviewed the report and in one of our charts we tried to illustrate the complaints process. It's actually far more complex than even that chart would suggest.

[Wai Young, Conservative, Vancouver South, BC]

Like many members of the public, I was actually very shocked that it would take a four-year process, all kinds of legal machinations, and a very dispersed process, as you were saying, across the country, for people to get their issues acknowledged or even their cases lodged.

Bill C-42 gives the Commission for Public Complaints Against the RCMP an extra $5 million and the RCMP an extra $9.8 million. Will this address the issue? Will it restore public confidence?

[Ian McPhail]

If properly used, the answer is, I think, yes.

The additional funding has to be intelligently used. As I said, Bill C-42 provides the tools for the commissioner to do so, and in my opinion this report provides a road map for the commissioner on how to move towards this goal, which I think everyone here, regardless of affiliation, shares.

[Wai Young, Conservative, Vancouver South, BC]

Because timing is of the essence right now, because I've only got five minutes, I'm going to move on.

Other departments that have come before us, like Canada Post, etc., have indicated that their high levels of good and best practices and positive outcomes have been because of training and leadership, two things that you've identified that the RCMP needs to do. I see that you've done so already. As of November 2012, I understand that 94% of the employees had already taken mandatory online training. Is that correct?

[Ian McPhail]

That's correct.

[Wai Young, Conservative, Vancouver South, BC]

So do you feel that the RCMP has moved quickly—and therefore the government—to address the need to restore confidence in our national police force? Yes or no?

[Ian McPhail]

The short answer would be yes.

[Wai Young, Conservative, Vancouver South, BC]

We also have in front of us an international report looking at best practices in other countries around the world, as well as the United Nations. When I read that report and I distill what you've suggested in your report and what we have done via Bill C-42, would you say that you finally have the resources and the tools necessary to align the RCMP's procedures and policies and what it needs to do to bring itself into 2012-2013 and beyond, by centralizing responsibility and accountability in this manner?

[Ian McPhail]

If Bill C-42 does give the commissioner the tools necessary to do the job, we have provided the road map. In addition, Bill C-42 gives the new civilian review and complaints commission the ability to follow up and provide the necessary checks and balances. The new funding will certainly enable the commission, and I trust the RCMP, to do that job.

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

I have to stop you there. I am sorry. To help people, I let them know when they have one minute left.

There are only two minutes left for Ms. Freeman. It is really only two minutes because we are going to change panels after.

[Mylène Freeman, NDP, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. McPhail, your report recommends that the RCMP implement a data collection system for workplace conflicts. The data would be compiled systematically and it would be comparable nationally. You also recommend that a report on the subject be prepared. To what degree have those recommendations been implemented? What about the others?

In addition, can we expect data collection that indicates what is related to sexual harassment in all the data on harassment?

[Ian McPhail]

Because time is short, I will be very specific.

With respect to the first question, I believe that you should address it to the commissioner regarding his progress in implementing that particular recommendation.

With respect to the second question, there's no reason why—in fact, it definitely should be the case that the compilation of harassment information and records should spell out the types of harassment that the complaints deal with....

[Mylène Freeman, NDP, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

I have a final question, then.

Given the lack of information that we currently have, we assume that there are people who are not coming forward and that this is part of the problem as well. Do you think that the collection of data would increase confidence and would lead more women coming forward? Would it lead to more women wanting to join the RCMP?

[Ian McPhail]

It's not possible to separate one from the other. The collection of data is necessary to give the commissioner and the senior leadership of the RCMP the information they need, because you can't address a problem if you don't know the extent of the problem. But all of the recommendations are important, right through to better training, the independence of the investigatory process, and the checks and balances to be provided by the new civilian review and complaints commission.

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

Thank you very much, Mr. McPhail. It is not that this is not interesting, but our time is limited.

This is the end of the first part of this meeting. Thank you very much for having taken the time to answer our questions this morning.

I will suspend the meeting for a few minutes to give the other witnesses time to come in. We know that the meeting is televised. Therefore, there are technical aspects to consider. It will also give members time to go get something to eat.

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

I invite people to please take their seats. The more time we have with the commissioner, the better.

Good afternoon, everyone. We are beginning the second part of our 60th meeting. Without further ado, I would like to introduce Bob Paulson, who is appearing before the committee for the second time since I have been chair. Welcome, Mr. Paulson. Mr. Paulson is the Commissioner of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police.

Mr. Paulson, I think you are now a regular at these meetings. You have 10 minutes to make your presentation, and afterward we will move to the question portion. You have the floor.

[Commissioner Bob Paulson, Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police]

Madam Chair, members of the committee, thank you for having invited me to speak to you today.

Madame Chair and committee members, thank you for inviting me here today.

Earlier this morning I appeared before your colleagues at the Public Safety and National Security committee, where I spoke of the CPC's recently released report on harassment within the RCMP, and what I'm doing about it. I raised and we discussed our action plan entitled “Gender and Respect”, in which I have tremendous confidence. I believe this plan will help me address issues relating to both the culture and the composition of the RCMP. I'd be happy to discuss these things further with you.

One of the action items in our plan calls for the ramping up of the intake of females in the force to 50% within two years so we can reach a 30% level of female police officers by 2025.

I've been getting a lot of raised eyebrows and skeptical reactions to this goal. People say that there aren't that many women interested in policing and that I'm setting myself up for failure. I disagree. I have challenged my recruiting personnel to bring some innovation to our recruiting strategies and I've challenged our senior leaders and human resources personnel to develop our workplace such that it is respectful of the people who make up the team, regardless of gender.

Policing in today's reality is frankly as challenging and as rewarding a career as there is in Canada right now. It is not for everybody, that's true, which is not to say that it is a man's domain. It is a profession that is in dire need of smart, honest, community-minded, compassionate, resilient, and persistent people.

The RCMP is making progress in bringing about positive change, but there is a lot to do.

It is making progress in bringing about positive change, but there is a lot to do.

Our mission meanwhile is to keep Canadians safe in their homes and their communities. Not a day goes by that I am not amazed and inspired by the work our men and women do to deliver on this mission for all Canadians.

I look forward to our discussions today and I'd be pleased to take your questions.

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

Thank you, Mr. Paulson.

We will start now with Ms. Crockatt. You have seven minutes.

[Joan Crockatt, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Thank you very much, Commissioner, for being here. I'm very impressed by the RCMP's testimony today.

One of the things that we heard earlier was basically the size of this issue. Our government does take sexual harassment in the workplace very seriously. It's important that we lock in where the issues lie so that we can make sure we are moving forward in the right way.

We have heard that sexual harassment is about 4% of the overall abuse complaints, which is pretty consistent with what we've been hearing, of 3% to 4%. Is that your understanding as well?

[Commr Bob Paulson]

Yes it is, Madam Chair. The 4% is number from the files reviewed by the CPC. I think our number, when we did the overall review.... I don't take issue with 4%; it's in the area of 4%, yes.

[Joan Crockatt, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Okay, so that's about 29 cases per year.

There was some discussion about whether there were some people who were not coming forward. But then I think that Ms. Inman suggested that wasn't the case when they opened it up to people. Are you confident that in the system we are getting sexual harassment fully reported?

[Commr Bob Paulson]

I would have to say a qualified no to that. I know that it is a very difficult issue to unpack in the workplace. I think we've done a lot of work towards reassuring folks that the process and the organizational response won't be an impediment to people coming forward, but sometimes there are other inhibitors that may restrict people, just the embarrassment, perhaps, or other drivers.

So while I'm confident that we do not have a situation where people need to fear coming forward, I don't think I can say unequivocally that people who are affected are all coming forward.