Status of Women Committee on Feb. 26th, 2013

[Commr Bob Paulson]

She has been replaced. Her job was replaced. Peter Henschel went into her job, and he's doing a fine job there.

If your point is that we need more deputy commissioners on the senior executive committee, I agree with you. I don't have any serving women as a deputy commissioner. I have two equivalent deputy commissioners who are civilians and public servants, but I need sworn officers at the senior executive table.

If that's your point, I'm on it.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

Well, if 50% of your men and women have been with you, as I understand, for less than five years, how are you possibly going to get these new officers up into management positions in the future? How are you going to move them up beyond a basic level?

[Commr Bob Paulson]

The action plan discusses that at some considerable length, and I'll briefly describe it.

We have a good feeder pool, if I can use the term, of candidates at the NCO and senior NCO levels. We have to get those folks interested in the commissioned officer ranks. Many of them are interested, but not enough of them, so we are tasking our COs and senior officers to embark on a mentoring program of reaching out to the talented candidates and bringing them along.

Then, when they get into the officer corps, we need to be developing those people, by special consideration, for exposure to certain jobs, such as by transferring them to a command position, or mentoring, and getting them ready for the senior executive. We're well positioned, although you wouldn't be able to tell it by looking at the senior executive committee right now. But we're well positioned, and we have a good succession plan to do just that. But I agree that we're short at the senior executive rank.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

I am continually concerned because we don't have a completely independent commission that looks over the RCMP, in the same sense that the Toronto Police Service has, and many of the police services across the country do. Or they at least have a union that oversees and provides a vehicle for various of the issues that you are trying to deal with now.

Do you not think that would be helpful to you as an organization? Especially if you're trying to establish a new direction under your leadership, would that not be helpful to you and the organization to have that?

[Commr Bob Paulson]

I misunderstood your question.

Do you mean an independent commission to oversee the RCMP?

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

Yes.

[Commr Bob Paulson]

Well, you just heard from them.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

Yes, on that one there, but an arm's-length one, farther away from....

Who's going to appoint the people on the current one that you're referring to, from Bill C-42?

[Commr Bob Paulson]

Not me.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

So they'll be arm's-length from you?

[Commr Bob Paulson]

Absolutely.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

And what are your comments on having a unionized workforce in the RCMP?

[Commr Bob Paulson]

That's not for me to decide whether our employees unionize or take advantage of the existing approach, which is the staff representative system. That's for them to decide.

I agree with the idea that members need to be represented. Our employees need to be represented with management, and how they do that is up to them.

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

I will have to stop you there, Mr. Paulson, because Ms. Sgro's time is up.

I would ask members to be a bit more attentive. When I say “one minute,” it's because you have one minute left. Thank you.

We go now to Ms. James, who has five minutes.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Welcome back, Commissioner Paulson.

I don't think anyone has touched base on the particular topic of your zero tolerance policy. I believe it was back in November that we were told that the policy was actually being enforced.

I'm wondering if you could talk about or comment on the value of that type of policy. Is that still first and foremost when dealing with issues and talking about workplace harassment, whether sexual harassment or bullying, or whatever the case may be? I wonder if you could comment on that and whether that's still at the top of the list of things you're enforcing.

[Commr Bob Paulson]

I think the zero tolerance approach is better understood as one where we are making sure that all of our supervisors and leaders are acting proactively when they see circumstances that may give rise to some of those complaints, and that when people do make complaints they'd better be acting on them in accordance with our policies and our best practices and so on. So that's how I understand the zero tolerance approach to these kinds of discipline and harassment issues.

But I think that what we are trying to do, more broadly, is to get our leaders and our members, frankly, engaged in these issues, to make sure that even the entry-level constable has a full understanding of what harassment is and what the dynamics of a workplace are, how workplace conflict can lead to these sorts of protracted problems. So we're doing that at Depot, we're doing that in field training, we're doing that with supervisors at their first level entry into the corporal supervisory world, we're doing that with middle managers, and we're doing it with executives.

That's what we need. We've tinkered and we have a plan to refine our process in response to some of these complaints, but I'm much more interested in avoiding these complaints, and that will come from the behaviours of the officers in the workplace.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Thank you very much. We've actually heard numerous witnesses stress the importance of being proactive and dealing with a situation at the very lowest level and making sure that employees recognize the signs of harassment and that it doesn't escalate to a higher degree, which we now have seen.

I'm not sure if it was to one of my colleagues to someone across the floor, but you mentioned with regard to Bill C-42 that part of that is going to involve training leaders, or different levels within the RCMP, about different policies. I'm glad that you did mention that. Thank you for that.

We actually heard from Ian McPhail in the previous hour, and I'm going to try to quote him. I wrote it down in scratchy writing, which I'm going to try to read. He indicated that Bill C-42 is part of the process and that it's going to give the Commissioner of the RCMP the tools to perform his duties, and the right tools to streamline a very convoluted process.

Do you agree with that statement?

[Commr Bob Paulson]

Yes, I do.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

So when we talk about a convoluted process, we're talking about the process of how we've been dealing with sexual harassment and harassment. The measures within Bill C-42 and the additional funding are going to assist in that particular application.

Questions have come up at committee a number of times, from the other side, with respect to there being too much power or authority left in one person or office's hands. Bill C-42 is actually going to assist in centralizing the responsibility and the accountability into one office, and that office is yours. Do you have any concerns about that?

The question is that someone has to be in charge. At the end of the day, someone ultimately has to be in charge of something, regardless of whether it's this or any other factor in our day-to-day life. Someone has that responsibility. Do you think that responsibility does lie within your office and is that the right direction to go in?

[Commr Bob Paulson]

I think it is. I've heard similar criticism. There's a concern that too much power is being centralized in my office. I don't think that stands the test of examination because there are ample mechanisms for accountability as well with that increased authority I'm going to be asked to discharge.

What's more important from all this is that it will give me and the force in the future the flexibility to adapt. We've been stuck with this sort of antiquated system of discipline and human resource management because it's statutorily prescribed. Now the strategy is one that is going to use regulations and commissioner's standing orders to allow us to react to a changing environment and changing workplaces. So the accountability to the external review committee, to the....

I'll stop talking.

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

Thank you, Mr. Paulson. Thank you, Ms. James.

You see, when I don't say there's one minute left, it doesn't go well. We don't know how much time is left. It is my mistake.

We go now to Ms. Ashton, who will, I think, share her time with Ms. Day. You have a total of five minutes.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill, MB]

I have a couple of quick questions from my side, Commissioner.

I'm guessing that you realize that Bill C-42 doesn't actually make any reference to sexual harassment. So here we are talking about a piece of legislation that is meant to deal with it but doesn't actually mention the problem.

Do you feel we're moving fast enough, whether it's the mandating from the Minister or Parliament and the RCMP, to curb sexual harassment in the RCMP?

[Commr Bob Paulson]

Yes, I think we are. The bill also doesn't say anything about police officer corruption or police officers doing burglaries or police officers assaulting people, but it's understood that the conduct and the discipline that is attached to our employees in discharging their duties as police officers is what's being centrally considered. That includes harassment and harassing behaviour, including sexual harassment.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill, MB]

One might say, though, that sexual harassment, of course, is the elephant in the room, or in this case it's what we talk about as a principal focus, so the fact that it's actually missing from a bill that's meant to deal with it is problematic. That's one of the points we've raised.

I just want to go back, Commissioner, to the final point around missing and murdered aboriginal women. Next week at the UN commission, this is going to be a major issue for Canada. When we're talking about women being afraid to come forward, which is similar to the situation of officers in their instances of sexual harassment, what is the RCMP doing on the ground in places like northern B.C., or even where I come from in northern Manitoba, in terms of training? What is being done within the RCMP so that people feel they can come forward?

[Commr Bob Paulson]

Thank you for that question, because the RCMP is very active in training our members and in insisting that our members are plugged into their communities where they have the responsibility of policing. So our members get front-line training in terms of awareness issues and cultural-sensitivity issues. Across this country, we bring in people from the groups that we are asked to police to help train our officers in sensitivity issues and issues unique to those cultures.

As I did this morning, I will point to Project Devote in Manitoba, which is looking at missing and murdered aboriginal women there; Project KARE in Alberta, and formerly one in Manitoba; Project Even-Handed in British Columbia, and the Highway of Tears investigation—E-PANA as it's called. All have very sophisticated, elaborate, deliberate outreach programs into those communities, because we recognize that we're not going to solve those crimes and those terrible circumstances without the engagement of those communities. My officers and I have been to the north frequently. I have met with my officers, and I would invite you and your colleagues to come out to Prince George, to spend the night with us in a police car, to see what we do, and to see how we interact with these people, because it's not accurately reflected in some of the reports that you've been reading.