Status of Women Committee on Feb. 26th, 2013

[Tilly O'Neill-Gordon, Conservative, Miramichi, NB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thanks to all of you for taking time to be with us.

As you can very well understand, with all this work and study that we're doing, it's very important to all of us that all the public servants be free to face the daily and expected challenges of a day's work without harassment and without fear of mistreatment by colleagues and co-workers or supervisors. I assure you that our government places our whole confidence in the RCMP and in the system. So we thank you for being here, and thank you for the work you are putting forth.

In your report, your first recommendation reads as follows: “That the RCMP implement a systematically compiled and nationally comparable system of data collection and reporting in respect of workplace conflict.”

What sorts of recommendations are the Commission for Public Complaints Against the RCMP empowered to make, and will you address policy and procedures, disciplinary measures, and reporting? What measures would you follow?

[Ian McPhail]

To begin with, with respect to the specific recommendation that you referred to, I can tell you that the review that the commission performed was the first time, was the first review, that any body analyzed all of the complaint files over a period of time and with a view to assessing how they were handled and how that could be improved.

I would see this as being an ongoing process. No one report is going to solve the problem. No policy statement is going to solve the problem. What needs to be institutionalized within the RCMP—and, frankly, I think this applies to any large organization—is the ability to have proper training, reporting, ongoing monitoring and, at the end of the day, outside review as to how the process has been conducted.

[Tilly O'Neill-Gordon, Conservative, Miramichi, NB]

In your experience so far, what would you say is the one thing that will make the biggest difference in resolving incidents of sexual harassment in the workplace? Is there one thing you can think of?

[Ian McPhail]

That's not an easy question, but what I would suggest is perhaps a consciousness on the part of people throughout the organization that individual respect for one's colleagues regardless of rank, regardless of gender, is critical. If there is that kind of respect, which is going to come from leadership and good policy, I think that's what we're all looking for, and which our recommendations are designed to help the RCMP accomplish.

[Tilly O'Neill-Gordon, Conservative, Miramichi, NB]

Yes, and I can assure you that that's probably what we have heard a lot from the other departments. It's things like leadership and the expectations in place that really make a difference in the workplace and how people handle themselves with their co-workers.

You mentioned training. What is the expectation in that regard? Is it done on a yearly basis, is it just when new staff arrive, or how does the training take place in this department?

[Ian McPhail]

There are different types of training. There is the training of the investigators themselves. You might think, with a police force of thousands of trained investigators, why added training would be necessary. That's because harassment of whatever type is different in its fundamental nature from criminal investigation. Harassment can of course become criminal, but RCMP members are trained in performing criminal investigations. That involves gathering evidence in preparation for lodging a criminal charge.

With respect to harassment investigations, I believe the goal should be early intervention. So the training of managers can enable the managers to spot the indicia of harassment before it becomes a serious issue. Then in terms of the investigators themselves, the initial steps should be remedial.

Only in the cases where that doesn't work would you then presumably move on to formal disciplinary hearings.

[Tilly O'Neill-Gordon, Conservative, Miramichi, NB]

Could you please describe in further detail what you think would be the best way to collect and harness data on sexual harassment in the workplace. Is there any special way we could collect this data, or do you have any special idea?

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

Be very quick.

[Ian McPhail]

The data is there, but it's in the divisions. It's not accessible to the commissioner and to the leadership of the RCMP.

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

Thank you.

We will now turn to Ms. Sgro. You have seven minutes.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair, and welcome, Mr. McPhail. I'm really pleased that you accepted our invitation to be here today. I thank you most of all for taking the initiative on your own to go ahead and do that investigation without being asked.

Can you keep your answers as short as possible because seven minutes disappears very quickly?

When was your mandate last reviewed?

[Ian McPhail]

There has not been a formal review of the mandate since the commission was established in the 1980s.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

In the 1980s. So would you suggest that it might be time to have another look at your mandate given some of the issues we have heard over the last several years?

[Ian McPhail]

Absolutely. I believe that Bill C-42 is the culmination of that process.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

The issues around Bill C-42 and how thorough and effective that will be all depend on the commissioner. It's still putting the commissioner in charge of everything. It gives him the extra powers, the new powers that he specifically asked for, but it always ends up being totally up to the commissioner how this will go and how thoroughly a lot of these things will actually be enforced, is it not?

[Ian McPhail]

Legislation can give tools. Organizations such as the CPC can provide guidance, road maps, and recommendations. I think in any organization there's an issue of leadership, and every organization is dependent on the leadership within that organization to use the tools given to accomplish the goals set forth.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

But, in effect, we still have the fox in charge of the henhouse, to put it as bluntly as I can. Of course, ultimately, we want the full support of our leadership, but it does put everything back to the head of the RCMP as to how successful this will be.

[Ian McPhail]

With respect to our recommendations, that's not totally correct. Here's where I might differ from you somewhat. The final recommendation we made was that there be ongoing review by an external body. I would anticipate this would be the new civilian review and complaints commission, pursuant to its powers of doing systemic reviews of the progress of the RCMP in implementing the recommendations and dealing with issues of harassment. I would agree with you that there need to be appropriate checks and balances. In my opinion, the new review and complaints commission could provide that check and balance.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

How do we know that? How are we going to ensure that it happens? I guess we're always back to checking the one who's checking the other one, and who's checking the one after that.

[Ian McPhail]

Well, there's no question that policy is often dependent on the individuals involved. At the end of the day, I think it's up to the Canadian public and their will, as expressed through their parliamentarians, to insist that this take place. I would see what this committee is doing today as part of the checks and balances in the system.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

When you talk about the independent commission that you referred to, what do you classify as independent?

[Ian McPhail]

I would classify as independent the ability of the commission to perform its mandated function—subject always to requests from the minister or others to perform certain functions—without interference.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

I thought your 11 recommendations were all very helpful, including to the government. But when you talked about the external review mechanism of the decisions being implemented, why wouldn't you want that external body to do the complete investigation and subsequent recommendations?

[Ian McPhail]

It's for the reason I outlined to Ms. Ashton, which is that it is something that we considered and discussed among ourselves, but by outsourcing that very critical function, it then becomes somebody else's responsibility. I don't think we would want to encourage that particular mindset.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

We have independent commissions overseeing police services throughout the country that operate very well, have been very successful, and are at arms' length away and have completed those investigations.