Evidence of meeting #75 for Status of Women in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was communities.
A video is available from Parliament.
Member, Iroquois Caucus
We're usually involved when there's no money to pay the other party off or no alternative place to live. We don't have the resources to address those needs in our communities.
Conservative
Susan Truppe Conservative London North Centre, ON
Did you find that report troubling, though? A full 42% said that, to some degree, they didn't feel that the band government was doing enough to protect on-reserve women from violence?
Member, Iroquois Caucus
First of all, I would like to know whether or not the people who were interviewed had ever lived on a reserve. I don't know whether they canvassed the people who lived on the reserve. Quite often, people who are not living on the reserve have a misunderstanding of what goes on there. They're not confronted with the day-to-day problems that exist in a first nation.
Conservative
Susan Truppe Conservative London North Centre, ON
Thank you.
We acknowledge that Bill S-2 will not, and is not intended to, address the broad issues of poverty or housing shortages on the reserve. The bill is developed in response to women and men who asked the government to address this inequity. It provides equal rights to the family home and protection for primary caregivers, the majority of whom are women, and their children in situations of family violence, divorce, separation, or the death of a spouse or common-law partner.
Conservative
Susan Truppe Conservative London North Centre, ON
Thank you.
Do you believe that if you finance the construction and maintenance of the family home that your partner should be able to retain full ownership of the family home upon the breakup of your marriage or common law relationship? Can you justify denying someone access to legal recourse in a situation where they've paid for the home that no one affirms to be their own?
We did have a witness that was, sort of, in that same situation. She wasn't able to have her home after she paid all this money.
Can I ask you, Chief Abram?
Member, Iroquois Caucus
Certainly.
I do believe in the case of Oneida that we already had processes in place, prior to signing housing loan agreements, where there is a couple involved. It already speaks to the disposition of the property should there be a separation occurring between the two. Those kinds of things are already occurring within our first nation.
That is something that we can handle as a government. We view that this bill is an affront to our aboriginal rights. Oneida was established in 1840 as a settlement; we actually bought the land. We were assured by the government of the day that we would be secured management of our lands, which we have done continually since 1840. The government does not have any documentation regarding our land transactions. We handle our own wills and estates. We have our own independent land holding system that has been in operation since 1840. We are quite capable of dealing with these things on our own without the intrusion by a foreign government.
NDP
The Chair NDP Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe
Thank you, Chief Abram.
Ms. Truppe's time is up.
I will now give the floor to Ms. Ashton for seven minutes.
NDP
Niki Ashton NDP Churchill, MB
Thank you very much, Deputy Grand Chief, Chiefs, and Ms. Fletcher, for joining us here today.
We're hearing overwhelming opposition from first nations and certainly, overwhelming concern about the process: the lack of consultation; the lack of listening to the concerns that first nations have brought forward; the lack of non-legislative measures and support, whether it's housing, policing, women's shelters; questions about what the provincial courts are going to do; and questions that have gone unanswered.
I'm very thankful that you're here today to speak to us on behalf of the people that you represent. I just want to read into the record a statement made by the Minister for Status of Women, Hon. Rona Ambrose, who was quoted in as saying, “I think this about certain interested parties, namely some chiefs, who do not want to share their property. I believe strongly they're doing what they can quietly behind the scenes to get support from certain people and that's why you don't hear them come out”.
Now, obviously, the minister isn't here today to see you, in public, in a televised meeting across the country, pronouncing your opposition, much like leaders did last week. And we'll hear more tomorrow, as well.
Obviously, there's a statement out there by a minister of the Crown, who must have credibility. What would you say in response to that kind of a statement?
Maybe we can start with Chief Montour.
Member, Iroquois Caucus
I would say that being a minister of the Crown does not give anybody omnipotent knowledge of any situation. I would also say that the minister of the Crown who made that statement really does not understand the reality.
As I said in my opening statements, the Iroquois society is a matrilineal society. In our society, in the past, women owned the land, the house, and the children. Men were husband visitors. So if we go down the line, we were thrown out. In the case of Iroquois communities, we still follow that line, that this is a shared responsibility between men and women. I took offence when I heard the minister indicate that male chiefs are scheming behind the scenes to hold onto power. I certainly am not.
NDP
Niki Ashton NDP Churchill, MB
And you're not, clearly, behind the scenes. You're here in the open, much like other leaders have done, expressing real opposition.
Perhaps we'll go to Deputy Grand Chief Fiddler, if you have any comments.
Deputy Grand Chief, Nishnawbe Aski Nation
Deputy Grand Chief Alvin Fiddler
First of all, it's very disappointing to hear the minister of the Crown, representing the government, make those types of comments. I think what I said, right from the onset when I made my statement, was that we all agree and we all recognize the need to ensure that we protect the interests of the whole family, women and children especially, in the event of a marriage breakup.
We're very much interested in working together with whoever wants to work with us to ensure that we do this right, that we develop a process where it will work for our families and our communities. We're still committed to that. It doesn't sound like this minister is committed to doing the work, but we are. That's why we're here today.
NDP
Niki Ashton NDP Churchill, MB
We'll move on to another question. My colleague across the way asked about whether bands are doing enough.
Is the federal government doing enough to put an end to family violence on first nations amongst aboriginal women in particular? Is the federal government doing enough?
Perhaps we'll start with Ms. Fletcher. Could you tell us what you think, based on your involvement?
Women's Council Representative, Nishnawbe Aski Nation
Thank you.
I don't believe the federal government is doing enough by a long shot. I'm also disturbed by the comments that I just heard. It makes it sound like aboriginal people don't know what they're doing. That's very wrong. The problem is that we're trying to fit into a system that's not ours. When federal legislation comes down, we don't understand it because we didn't help design it. You need to come and sit and talk with us. We need to help design what's going on. We know it's a problem in our communities. We're not stupid. The Nishnawbe Aski Nation Women's Council sent in a report five years ago, and we talked about needing money for translation. We need money for legal fees. We need money to go to the communities and do proper consultation so that people understand what this is all about. No, the federal government is not doing enough at this point in time.
The other point I wanted to make is that our customs are different. In some homes, you have extended families. How are you going to separate that when the grandparents are still in the home? In some communities, there are 13 or 14 people living in one house. I know we're not talking about housing issues here, but it's all related. You have to come and see what's going on in the communities. That's my message.
Thank you.
NDP
Niki Ashton NDP Churchill, MB
Perhaps Chief Fiddler or Ms. Fletcher, do you have an idea of what the housing shortage is in the non-territories? In terms of numbers, is there a ballpark number of how many houses your first nations need?
Deputy Grand Chief, Nishnawbe Aski Nation
Deputy Grand Chief Alvin Fiddler
There have been a number of studies done in the past to try to assess the infrastructure needs of our communities. On housing a number of years ago, I believe the figure was about 20,000 to 25,000 units needed to try to catch up or bridge the gap in terms of the families that have been on a waiting list for many years. That's just one study, one figure, that I'm familiar with.
NDP
The Chair NDP Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe
I will now give the floor to Ms. O'Neill Gordon for seven minutes.
Conservative
Tilly O'Neill-Gordon Conservative Miramichi, NB
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I want to thank you all for being here and making your presentations. I also want to reiterate what my colleague had just said. Bill S-2, we all know, and I acknowledge thoroughly, that it's not intended to address the broad issues of poverty or housing shortages on reserve. This bill was developed in response to men and women asking the government to do this. This is not just something we dreamed up. We were asked to do this, and that is why we are progressing with that. We've had witnesses who have been here already and who have spoken with passion on this issue. That is why we are going in this direction.
I also note that in 2007, the NAN held one consultation session, which included three focus groups over three days with approximately 30 participants. All these legislative options were put forward for consideration in the discussion paper. Since 2007, what progress has NAN made in developing family law templates for all the NAN communities? You said there were 49. I'm wondering what progress you have made in developing family law for all of these communities and matrimonial real property practices that incorporate restorative justice and the circle approach.
I will ask Chief Maracle.
Member, Iroquois Caucus
The Iroquois Caucus has drafted a law that is under discussion. What we have done in our communities is implemented practical solutions that work. We have a market-based system in housing. Most of the land that homes are built on are under Indian Act certificates of possession. We allow the one member to take out a mortgage on that house to pay the other partner off who's not going to live in that house when they're both band members. If the non-native person is not a member of the band, the native person borrows money, and then they're paid a financial settlement, which ends the fighting. They both can get on with their lives and have a place to live.
Those are tools that most people in Canada can access when their marriage breaks down. Those tools are not available for first nation people who live on a reserve. Believing that legislation alone will cure this problem is very naive and very unrealistic on the part of the government. It takes financial resources to settle differences about property.
Conservative