Evidence of meeting #75 for Status of Women in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was communities.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

William K. Montour  Member, Iroquois Caucus
R. Donald Maracle  Member, Iroquois Caucus
Grand Chief Alvin Fiddler  Deputy Grand Chief, Nishnawbe Aski Nation
Jackie Fletcher  Women's Council Representative, Nishnawbe Aski Nation
Joel Abram  Member, Iroquois Caucus
Marlene Sandoval  Procedural Clerk
Viviane Michel  President, Quebec Native Women
Ellen Gabriel  As an Individual
Joanne Ottereyes  Legal and Policy Analyst, Quebec Native Women

12:25 p.m.

President, Quebec Native Women

Viviane Michel

Finally, the harmonization of concurrent jurisdictions and the various laws in force on reserves, under the Indian Act and Bill S-2 will be a considerable challenge and, with the particular features of the legislation in force in the province of Quebec, the challenge will be virtually impossible to overcome.

12:25 p.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe

Thank you very much, Ms. Michel. I am sorry, but your time is up.

Ms. Gabriel, you now have the floor.

You have a maximum of 10 minutes, Madame.

12:25 p.m.

Ellen Gabriel As an Individual

[Witness speaks in Kanien'kéha]

Greetings to the chair, honourable members of Parliament, and my esteemed colleagues from the Quebec native women's association. This is at least the fourth or fifth time I'm presenting on this issue, in previous times as the president of the Quebec native women's association, so it is a great honour indeed.

As in the previous forms of this bill, several persistent omissions must be taken into consideration if there are to be real and long-lasting solutions to this problem. They first must be placed in context to understand the root causes of this injustice, which originates in the Indian Act and the impositions of colonial and patriarchal values.

I am compelled to note that the goal of this bill is the fair and equitable distribution of matrimonial real property for Indian women on reserves upon the dissolution of a relationship.

This bill should not profess to address the chronic issue of violence against aboriginal women. The issue of violence is best addressed through a national plan of action by Canada, its provinces and territories, and through cultural sensitivity classes on Canada's colonial history for judges, lawyers, members of Parliament, and politicians. It should include a genuine process of reconciliation that recognizes the negative impact of colonialism, the Indian Act, and the Indian residential schools system on indigenous peoples' identity, culture, language, traditional forms of governance, and how they have affected the roles and authority of indigenous women in their nations and communities.

A holistic view is essential if the issue of MRP is to be properly addressed by all levels of government, but in particular within aboriginal forms of governance.

High unemployment rates, lack of sufficient housing, a growing population, dispossession of our lands and resources, the imposition of paternalistic values and processes, outdated funding formulas, poverty, and social ills rooted in colonialism have for generations affected indigenous women's ability to enjoy their fundamental human rights.

There are several areas of concern regarding this bill, which include, one, the incorrect assumption that this bill was accompanied by a consultation process; two, the lack of inclusion of the Constitution Act of 1982, which protects and affirms the inherent and treaty rights of aboriginal peoples; three, the lack of resources for communities in implementation of this bill, and potential court orders supported by a weak implementation process, considering the situation of policing on reserves; and four, the non-legislative measures and lack of access to justice, in particular for those women living in remote communities, and the financial burdens placed upon these women, where homemakers rely on spouses for their incomes.

On the matter of consultation, I must state sincerely that there was none. While engagement sessions were given by Wendy Grant-John—her report came out in March 2007—and an explanation of the issue of matrimonial property was provided, with some discussion on suggesting solutions, even the ministerial representative's report noted that there has not been sufficient time to reach consensus.

While the government firmly believes that there were consultations, I must remind them that the ultimate duty to consult rests with the Government of Canada and its duty to uphold the honour of the crown. It is important to state that there were no consultations on the specific details and nature of Bill S-2 on matrimonial real property.

It is of significant importance to note that during any consultation process, the process of reconciliation must be included and is always ongoing in Canada's relationship with aboriginal peoples. As per the policy of the Government of Canada in its duty to consult, the crown also consults because it is legally obliged to do so. It must give effect to reconciliation and uphold the honour of the crown—the government's ability to adversely affect aboriginal treaty rights is restricted in this reality—and crown conduct must demonstrate respect for aboriginal and treaty rights.

In remote communities women rely on travelling courts. Women must often travel in the same vehicle as their ex-partner to attend court. Remote communities do not have easy access to legal aid. The financial burden placed upon women is cumbersome in their quest for a fair and just settlement.

Access to justice is challenging. With regard to financial compensation to their ex-spouse, should they try to negotiate a fair and just settlement, their measure of worth, of contribution made as homemakers, is not considered. This causes aboriginal women to experience more vulnerability and discrimination, as low-income women would not be able to pay their ex-spouses for the value of their part of matrimonial real property.

The issue of policing on reserves is also an extremely serious question. Provincial courts would only be able to provide temporary occupation orders for the home, and a lot of times police who are reserve police might have trouble implementing them if they're related to the persons involved. In Quebec common law, as Ms. Michel has stated, relationships are not recognized.

If harmonization with provincial and territorial laws was the goal in this bill, then a consultation process that also included the customary laws of indigenous peoples, along with their free, prior, and informed consent, should also have been considered. The trend for over 100 years is to go to Canada's courts if we disagree with Canada's decisions. Aboriginal peoples should not have to go to Canada's courts to protect their inherent and treaty rights.

Another important issue is that of membership codes, the criteria created by the Indian Act, and many times it uses blood quantum. Should a woman not be a member of the community, the woman will never have the right to own the home and its implements, thereby creating another gap.

Lastly, a centre of excellence should not be included since this was never a topic of discussion during talks with Ms. Grant-John. A centre of excellence is another example of the paternalistic attitude of government. It ignores the customary laws of indigenous nations and ignores the inherent rights and treaty rights. It seems to be another part of the aboriginal industry where badly needed funding for communities will be directed toward an organization isolated from the communities, instead of going to institutions damaged by the Indian Act such as our languages and cultures and traditional customs and governance, as well as more emergency shelters in the communities, which are essential to this process of reconciliation.

If the centre of excellence is to be created, it should not be headed or controlled by any aboriginal organization. Instead, it should have indigenous women academics, elders with traditional knowledge, and front-line workers with experience in domestic and institutionalized racism and abuse.

Like many laws before it, Bill S-2 fails to consider the realities of first peoples and their communities who lack the much-needed financial and human resources for its implementation. Bands are already pushed to their limits by outdated funding formulas, as stated by former Auditor General Sheila Fraser in her 2011 June Status Report, in chapter 4, “Programs for First Nations on Reserves”. She states, "Structural impediments explain the lack of progress on reserves". Ms. Fraser goes on to say substandard construction practices or materials, lack of proper maintenance, and overcrowding also contribute. Bill S-2 also does not accommodate the need for more land, nor the fact that in order to develop their own MRP codes, a band must already have been in or be in negotiations on their land.

Legislation that fails to consider the effects of colonialism and assimilation policies, like the Indian residential school system and the Indian Act, creates deficiencies in the promotion and protection of indigenous women's rights. In recent years, great accomplishments in the area of human rights, most notably regarding the collective and individual rights of indigenous peoples through comprehensive human rights instruments like the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, must be included in any remedies to injustices faced by indigenous women and their families.

Various human rights agencies, like the UN Permanent Forum on Indigenous Issues, have been created to reconcile past injustices experienced by indigenous peoples due to doctrines of superiority and colonialism, which regrettably still exist today in Canada. There is a movement forward to end the discriminatory practices perpetuated under Canada's Indian Act laws and policies. It behooves the Government of Canada to implicate itself wholeheartedly within the processes of reconciliation in all its dealings with aboriginal peoples. Canada must amend Bill S-2, listen to the voices of indigenous women and their communities, embrace human rights instruments, and repeal Bill S-2.

I guess my recommendations will come at a later time. Thank you very much for your consideration.

12:35 p.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe

Thank you very much, Madame Gabriel.

Ms. Ambler, the floor is yours.

You have seven minutes.

May 7th, 2013 / 12:35 p.m.

Conservative

Stella Ambler Conservative Mississauga South, ON

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses today for being here to talk about Bill S-2.

Ms. Gabriel, you noted that you've spoken to a number of committees about this issue and others. I notice that in 2005 you testified before the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs with regard to on-reserve matrimonial real property rights. You stated that you felt—and correct me at any point if I'm not right about what you said—that the best way to address the issue would be to amend the Indian Act in the following way: establish a matrimonial property regime that provides all property acquired during the marriage to be the property of both spouses; ensure that men and women have equal rights to matrimonial property and guarantee a fair division of matrimonial property on the breakdown of a relationship; apply the matrimonial property amendments to common law couples; and allow the parent who has custody of the children to remain in the family home.

Does that sound about right? Would you have testified to that effect?

12:35 p.m.

As an Individual

Ellen Gabriel

That was in 2005. I think that sounds about right.

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

Stella Ambler Conservative Mississauga South, ON

I know it was a long time ago. It sounds familiar to me, too, because all of these provisions are in Bill S-2.

Funding issues aside—and that seems to have been the theme of your comments today—at the end you recommended that we amend the bill and then repeal the bill. If we repeal the bill, do you believe, in principle, that women on reserves, indigenous women in Canada, should be afforded the same rights as other Canadian women in this area of matrimonial real property?

12:35 p.m.

As an Individual

Ellen Gabriel

Firstly I'd like to say that I wasn't aware that the Indian Act was amended in this bill.

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

Stella Ambler Conservative Mississauga South, ON

No, I'm saying those provisions are in Bill S-2.

12:35 p.m.

As an Individual

Ellen Gabriel

The provisions to amend the Indian Act before it's been... Is this like a future consideration for amendments to the Indian Act? One of the major problems.... I don't know if you heard all of my presentation.

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

Stella Ambler Conservative Mississauga South, ON

I did. I was here.

12:35 p.m.

As an Individual

Ellen Gabriel

One of the problems has to do with membership codes. While you might have Indian status in Ottawa, the communities themselves are allowed to create their own membership codes and provide services for their members. So it becomes problematic, especially in certain communities where blood quantum is an extreme issue, so that a woman who's not a member of the community or who has partial status would not be able to become a member, and therefore not be able to have land. She could stay there probably for a certain period of time.

But the whole issue should not be looked at solely from a funding perspective. I quoted to you many things that have happened. Canada applied this Indian Act. They have an Indian residential school system, for which we received an apology, but there's been no reconciliation to undo the damages that have been done.

So, great, you have an Indian Act band system that's going to apply the policies of the Government of Canada, but it does not recognize nor does it follow the traditional governing systems or even recognize our sovereignty over our lands. There is an assumed sovereignty by Canada, and Canada's sovereignty is based on legal fictions, such as the doctrine of discovery and papal bulls.

You can have all the amendments you like, but still there are problems that need to be fixed within the community. Now that you've damaged all of our institutions and now that it's easier to embrace colonialism and assimilation and to adopt every single part of what was intended in the Indian residential school system, you want us to pick up the matrimonial real property according to what you think is the solution rather than listening to the solutions that have been provided.

We have rights wherever we go on our traditional territories. They should not just apply to reserves. Yes, we should have the same rights as anybody else, but within our own nations, under our laws that predate European arrival here. The issue is a lot more complicated than strictly saying it's a matter of funding. It's a matter of human rights. It's a matter of respecting inherent treaty rights. It's a matter of implementation and of reconciliation, which was required after the residential school apology.

12:40 p.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe

You have two more minutes, Ms. Ambler.

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

Stella Ambler Conservative Mississauga South, ON

Thank you.

Please forgive me, because I don't see the connection between reconciliation regarding residential schools and matrimonial property rights. I recognize that it was this government that issued the residential schools apology. That, to me, shows that.... I hear colonialism and paternalism. Frankly, I see a government that's actually trying very hard to consult on this issue and others, and to do the right thing, especially with regard to residential schools.

Maybe my question to you should be this. Do you want Bill S-2 to solve all of the problems? That's not how I see it. I see it as solving one problem. It's one piece of the puzzle. You're right. It doesn't address residential schools and it doesn't address housing, but it does address a big issue. We've heard from witnesses who've lived through the nightmare of being kicked out of their homes, and we're trying to help them.

So we can talk about a national plan of action and we can talk about colonialism. With regard to consultation, you can say there was none, but there was. It may not have been enough, but there was consultation. We still think we're doing the right thing. Do you not think there are women who will be helped by this?

12:40 p.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe

Madam Ambler, time has expired.

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

Stella Ambler Conservative Mississauga South, ON

Sorry.

12:40 p.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe

I'm sorry, I have to interrupt both of you.

I'm turning now to Madam Day

You have seven minutes.

12:40 p.m.

NDP

Anne-Marie Day NDP Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Ladies, welcome to this meeting of the committee. Thank you for travelling here. I am always happy to meet the witnesses.

Let me just say from the outset that some of the things I have heard this morning made my hair stand on end. I had to keep quiet. I heard people repeatedly asking the grand chiefs who spoke before you whether they had read Bill S-2. I found that to be incredibly disrespectful. It is as if I were to ask Ms. Bateman, Ms. Young, Ms. Crockatt, Ms. Ambler and so on whether they had read Bill S-2. I apologize on behalf of those who showed disrespect.

In terms of consultations, the Six Nations of the Grand River have all said that they were not consulted. Consultations with the great first nations are expected and required. I think family law—and correct me if I am wrong—is also set out in the Indian Act, meaning that you have full rights in the way you govern your people, which is normal. That is what we do. They are your people and it is your nation.

My first question is for Viviane Michel.

Your organization has recently issued a news release outlining Quebec Native Women's concerns regarding the implementation of Bill S-2 in light of the provisions of the Civil Code of Québec. In your view, there are discrepancies that are particularly concerning for aboriginal women in Quebec since the Civil Code of Québec does not provide the same rights to common-law partners as it does to legally married persons. It is said that 40% of women in Quebec are in common-law relationships. The implementation of this bill could create more problems. Could you tell us more about your concerns regarding the Civil Code of Québec?

12:40 p.m.

President, Quebec Native Women

Viviane Michel

As an Innu woman, I have a major concern. Love knows no borders. A number of aboriginal women are in common-law relationships with non-aboriginal partners. If this law is enforced and a verdict is reached, given all the problems facing our communities, including high rates of alcoholism and drug use, and if a woman experiences those problems and her partner is a Quebecker, he will have the right to live in the house.

So a Quebecker would be living in the house with the children. The woman would lose her children and they would be living in a community. Do you see how that could be a danger in aboriginal communities? That is the reality. I am not just talking about Quebeckers. It could affect other groups because more and more women have partners of different origins. So it can create such a gap in those communities. Women can lose everything, including their house and their children.

Joanne, do you have anything to add?

12:45 p.m.

Joanne Ottereyes Legal and Policy Analyst, Quebec Native Women

I would like to add one thing about Quebec's civil law. It has been difficult to match common law with civil law in Quebec. We have tried to find ways in which to apply the same protection mechanisms for Quebec women, women living off reserve. We have found that civil law in Quebec has different mechanisms to protect women, such as the safeguard order. Once before the court, this gives them custody of the children, child support payments and the right to live in the family home. That would have to be considered if common law were to be applied on reserves.

12:45 p.m.

NDP

Anne-Marie Day NDP Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC

Ever since we began to study Bill S-2 in committee, the members of the governing party on the committee have repeated a number of times that first nations have been consulted. They talk about a hundred or so consultations in 76 locations and about the $8 million that has been spent. That includes their last three attempts to get the bill passed. But your organization seems clear on the issue. You have shared several concerns during the consultation process and now, for the fourth time, the government is failing to respond to the requests of aboriginal women’s associations.

You also state that Quebec Native Women as an organization has participated in a number of parliamentary committees and that you have forwarded your comments on previous versions of the bill. You have also specifically asked for more consultations in communities, but your opinions seem to have fallen on deaf ears. What do you think about that and what should have been done?

12:45 p.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe

You have a minute for your answer.

12:45 p.m.

Legal and Policy Analyst, Quebec Native Women

Joanne Ottereyes

The consultations were done quickly. There was no time to consult all communities, as we would like to have done. I think that aboriginal women should have had the right to adequate consultation and to have had access to all the information in their language—that is important—and culturally adapted.

12:45 p.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe

Ms. Day, you still have 30 seconds.

12:45 p.m.

NDP

Anne-Marie Day NDP Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC

Ms. Gabriel, what are your recommendations about the problems you have mentioned?