Status of Women Committee on May 7th, 2013

[The Chair, NDP, Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe]

Very briefly, please, Madam.

[Ellen Gabriel]

Thank you.

I discussed the inherent treaty rights and how we can incorporate them into any kind of legislation that might be coming up.

The process of reconciliation was always one of the things that was very important as we tried to emerge from the residential school process that has damaged all our institutions. I think the implementation of the UN declaration is the framework for reconciliation where we are going to be acknowledging each other's differences and have a peaceful coexistence. Because at this time, we have been living for over a hundred years—

[The Chair, NDP, Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe]

Thank you, Ms. Gabriel.

[Ellen Gabriel]

—in ideological imperialism that has not yet given—

[The Chair, NDP, Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe]

I'm sorry. Time has expired.

Ms. Crockatt, you have seven minutes.

[Joan Crockatt, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Thank you to our witnesses for coming.

I know it takes a lot of work to get yourselves up and ready for these, so I really appreciate the fact that you're here to talk about this issue, which I think we all agree is an important issue, even though we may come at it from different positions.

Ms. Gabriel, I want to follow up on some of the things that you were alluding to. One is the matter of respecting the inherent treaty rights. I wonder what you think about the provision in this bill that actually allows for the federal government to move into this area, but it also very much allows for band councils to come up with their own laws, which many have. I'm wondering what you think about that provision.

We see that as an opportunity to address a matter of urgency. We've been told that this is urgent, that there are women who are dying. We've heard stories from people who say, "If there had been something like this bill in place, this woman would not have died".

I wonder how you feel about that provision, which we hoped would certainly address the need. Some bands are in a very good position, and some in fact have already addressed that issue of matrimonial property rights. This is an interim step.

[Ellen Gabriel]

It's unfortunate to hear those kinds of stories.

I'll come from a Mohawk perspective, so you'll understand where I am coming from. Mohawk women own the land. We have title to the land. We come from a very strong, very resilient nation that does not recognize the authority of band councils and does not see that band councils have been representing us properly. That's not to say that we have anything against their decision to hop out of our canoe and into the other boat, as the Two Row Wampum treaty states. It's very difficult, because they are not the treaty holders. The treaty holders are the traditional governments.

We have tried to work with them in the past. I agree that for certain communities this issue is urgent. The issue of violence comes in to play, but it's wrong to make a stereotype that all women in the communities are suffering. As I said in my opening statement, the issue of violence against aboriginal women needs to be addressed at another forum, not through MRP. I thank you for your efforts, and I appreciate your comments, because it has been very difficult. I have been presenting on this issue for a long time without seeing any progress, just seeing changes to the name of the bill.

If there were interim measures, and if we knew the details of what those interim measures would be, besides this bill, I think many women's groups would be interested.

[Joan Crockatt, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

What about the centre of excellence? You had some interesting recommendations. We're thinking that, through this bill, we're getting to the same place that you're going by having an opportunity to be able to address the urgent need with the legislation within this bill, but also by leaving the door very much open to first nations to be able to devise their own laws, with the centre of excellence being there to assist with that.

We have also heard from the Haida, who have some very interesting ways of dealing with this issue. They feel that they can expand that out to other first nation groups across Canada.

Do you think that might get us to the same place?

[Ellen Gabriel]

First, just let me state that I'm not against looking and examining what are the best practices on this particular issue. However, as I stated in my opening remarks, the centre of excellence was not discussed during the consultations. This is something that was brought up by the government as an afterthought and presented as part of this. I think the centre of excellence funding could go, as I said, to the badly needed programs that are poorly underfunded.

Let's take a look at education in on-reserve schools. It would take 28 years for the quality of education for children and youth in reserve schools to catch up with what's found in the rest of Canadian society. We don't need another paternalistic institution. We need to be able to, in that process of reconciliation that I was talking about, look at our traditional governance structures where everyone had rights, everyone was equal, and everyone was protected, instead of this imposition of you're not Indian enough—“Indian” is the legal term under Canada's laws—and this whole impact of colonization on the mentality. It's more complicated. I know I'm running out of time and I'm trying to think of something, so I will just end it right there.

[Joan Crockatt, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Can I ask one more question about that, because I'm hoping to be able to get to this point. We understand the point you're making. This is not a panacea for all of the ills, and it's not intended to be able to fix every problem. But it is intended to try to go after this issue of matrimonial property rights not only for women but for men, and it's something that you've raised in the past in your testimony before committee.

The Frontier Centre for Public Policy has a very interesting study that showed that 42% of respondents—over 1,000 respondents—they studied on 78 bands said that they didn't feel that band governments were yet addressing this issue well enough. Now some are, but in the interim this is intended as a measure to help those women and men who are in this very difficult situation to be able to have a measure of protection until first nations people come up with their own solutions for that. Can we agree that might be an appropriate way to move forward?

[The Chair, NDP, Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe]

You have one minute to answer, Madam Gabriel.

[Ellen Gabriel]

I still disagree with the centre of excellence. I think that with all the time we've spent working on this issue, we should be so much more advanced than we are today.

Thank you.

[Joan Crockatt, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Thank you.

I don't think I have enough time, Viviane.

Do you want two seconds just to answer that? Or am I out of time?

[The Chair, NDP, Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe]

No, you have 30 seconds.

[Joan Crockatt, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

That's fine, Madame, thank you very much.

[The Chair, NDP, Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe]

Thank you, Ms. Crockatt.

[Viviane Michel]

I feel that it is important to consider our way of life and our cultural differences.

You want consultations. They took place; I was there as a participant from a community. In those consultations, we went quite deep, not just into family matters, but also into matters of ancestral property. That means territory and that good old patriarchal law that is imposed on us as women. Matrimonial property and hunting and trapping grounds are in the male spouse’s name.

Is the time up?

[The Chair, NDP, Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe]

Yes, I am sorry. I have to interrupt you. Ms. Crockatt's time ran out a few seconds ago.

Ms. Bennett, you have the floor.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

Thank you very much.

Seeing we only have five minutes left, I think it would be very important for you to say what you need to say. I think that you didn't get a chance, Madam Gabriel, to answer Ms. Ambler's question, where she made the assertion that this would help. I think we've heard strongly that you're not sure this will help. It won't necessarily help resolve matrimonial real property unless the woman has the resources to buy out her partner. As somebody who has looked after the family, that may not be there. It's up to the band to decide whether they will help her do that or not.

Also, in terms of violence against women I think we've heard strongly that you're not sure this is the way to go. Also, I think we've heard strongly that in Quebec even the matrimonial real property may not work in terms of common law and the way it works. Could you just close with your advice for the committee.

[Ellen Gabriel]

Go ahead, Viviane.

[Viviane Michel]

Maybe you want to hold nice consultations in the communities, but I know that you are going to pass Bill S-2 anyway, however much we tell you we are opposed to it. Your minds are already made up.

If you really want to consult, you have to do it in our language. That is very important. You also have to think in the long term, not in the short term. You cannot move quickly, but it happens each time. It is important to get first nations involved because the contact is easier then. People express themselves better in their own language. It is a big challenge for Quebec Native Women, which is trying to make women’s rights better known in the communities. Not all women know their rights, in fact.

A lot of education remains to be done in that regard. And Bill S-2 comes up once more. I feel sorry for our chiefs, but they are not always up to date. We are suddenly presented with a bill and we have to become informed quickly. We have to work together and to react. What are the positions of all our nations? That is a lot of work and it has to be done quite quickly.

This also has to be looked at in the long term. Some things do not work. Your laws do not work for us because we are different. We have a way of thinking that has existed for a long time. It is innate. It is not written down on paper, but it applies nonetheless. We have always had equal relationships. Failing to take that into consideration can also lead to shortcomings.

[The Chair, NDP, Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe]

Thank you. Unfortunately, I have to interrupt you.

We have to end the meeting because it is 1:00 p.m.

I'm sorry, I need to respect the time.

If all members of the committee are in agreement, could we perhaps continue the meeting for a couple of minutes?

I am sorry, it is not possible. We have time constraints.

On behalf of the committee, I would like to thank you for accepting our invitation and for coming to talk to us. Your testimony is very valuable.

The meeting is adjourned.