Status of Women Committee on Nov. 3rd, 2011

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

Thank you very much, Chair.

I'd like to thank our guests for being here, but particularly may I say to both of you thank you for your service to Canada. That's important to say, from all parliamentarians, and I know we all share that. Your outstanding commitment is beyond reproach. Please take that message back from parliamentarians to your fellow officers.

I was looking at page 7 in your book. Just out of interest, those aren't euros, are they? That looks like euro dollars as opposed to Canadian dollars.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

Maybe that's me, I'm not sure. It's not critical, and I do have some serious questions.

One of my colleagues opposite said, quite correctly, that we will be doing a report at the end of these series of meetings. She mentioned that we will be doing recommendations. While that's true, I should add for the record that in terms of the testimony we've heard, we are also going to be talking about the state of the union--in other words, what the government is doing. I just want to clarify that it isn't just about all the things that need to be done but about consideration of what has been put in place as well.

Madam Butterworth-Carr, by your testimony I was very surprised and impressed with the various initiatives the RCMP is engaged with across the country. I was quite struck by the various types of involvement. If I could take us there for a moment, to both of you, I was curious about your involvement with national aboriginal policing in particular.

In your role, do you find the RCMP's approach in dealing with aboriginals different from dealing with non-aboriginals as it relates to senior abuse, and if so, how, please?

[C/Supt Brenda Butterworth-Carr]

Madam Chair, in response, I think it's important to note that essentially how we respond is very much about whatever report or complaint happens to come forward. We ensure that people are definitely treated equally.

We recognize that within our indigenous communities certainly there has been some history, so we work very hard at ensuring we have an appropriate response, regardless of the sex or ethnicity or background lifestyle or relationship of the victim to the offender. We want to ensure that any of our responses are done in an appropriate and thorough manner.

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

I would have no doubt that they are done in a thorough manner.

In terms of your experiences, and appreciating the jurisdiction of the RCMP versus some provinces where they have their own police forces, what are you finding are the most common types of abuse in terms of seniors? I think we'd all like to know if you have a sense of that.

What's the most common? What would the top few issues be? Do you have some feeling for that?

[C/Supt Brenda Butterworth-Carr]

Essentially we see virtually everything in terms of the type of abuse. Our elders come forward with complaints or families come forward with complaints. There's a variety of areas, including certain forms of abuse such as fraud, assault, sexual assault, uttering threats, harassment, and so forth. There are other areas that we would look after in terms of the finance piece. We see virtually everything.

As to whether one is more prevalent or not, unfortunately I'm not able to respond to that at this time. I can certainly acquire that information and bring it forward. I'm not aware of any theme of one over the other.

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

Madam Chair, I think it would be useful to know if there are some aspects of seniors abuse that are more prevalent.

If you have the ability to do that, we as a committee might find that useful.

I find it interesting that again in your testimony you made a reference to one of the various pieces you have. I would like to echo my colleague's comment about the quality of the seniors guidebook, having looked at it briefly. You have a number of programs in which you engage the community. You've chosen one of the tools—approved by the RCMP, developed by NICE—for distribution to your RCMP officers as a resource for older women. There must have been some rationale that this was a particular target group that was worth the focus of the RCMP.

Is that a reasonable comment?

[C/Supt Brenda Butterworth-Carr]

Again, that's based upon a partnership in which we are one of several partners. Ultimately, the material that's being distributed through NICE is supported as a multi-agency approach. That would be one of the reasons why we share that particular information.

[The Chair, NDP, Niki Ashton]

Actually, we're over time, Mr. Holder. Thank you very much.

If you could please forward any information you have in terms of those statistics to the clerk of the committee, that would be very important for the study we're doing.

Thank you very much.

We'll now move on for five minutes to Ms. Brosseau.

[Ruth Ellen Brosseau, NDP, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Thank you very much.

Thank you both for taking the time to spend with us and to answer our questions. It's very important.

I'm new to this committee, so bear with me if I pose some different questions.

This is a great book. I find that it's going to be a great resource. In my riding, we have a lot of seniors. I haven't met all of them—that's impossible—but I've been to seniors' homes and had a chance to really talk with them and hear about their problems and their worries.

I'm looking at this book and I think it's great, but it doesn't mention sexual abuse or physical abuse. I know that you don't want to go into great detail about it, but this is a guidebook. I don't know who this is intended for. Is it intended for seniors? Is it intended for personal care workers? Is it intended for retirement homes? I'm trying to understand this book a little better.

Thank you.

[C/Supt Brenda Butterworth-Carr]

Madam Chair, in response, essentially the guidebook is intended for a number of audiences. We utilize it to train internally within our membership as well as externally. Ultimately, this is an older version of our guidebook; we do have a piece that's actually been updated. The bilingual booklet will be available as well.

The additional information that we anticipate having covered...sorry, I have the wrong piece of paper here, so please bear with me. Essentially, the additional information that will be in the new guidebook on elder abuse specifically speaks to forms of elder abuse such as neglect by self or others; physical abuse; sexual abuse and exploitation; psychological and emotional abuse; and economic abuse, which is stealing or misusing an elderly person's money or possessions. Those factors will in fact be included in the updated material.

To reiterate, the guide itself is really a teaching tool as well as an awareness tool for the elders themselves.

[Ruth Ellen Brosseau, NDP, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

I think this is great.

We heard from a witness earlier who told us that usually only one in five cases of elder abuse is reported. Would you say that elders would report their abuse? Is it a family member or somebody working with them who would report? What's most common?

[C/Supt Brenda Butterworth-Carr]

With respect to the reporting piece, we actually receive that in a number of various ways. We receive it from neighbours. We receive it from family members. We receive it from individuals themselves. As for what the most common reporting is, ultimately we usually receive that from other family members or caregivers or workers themselves.

[Ruth Ellen Brosseau, NDP, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Do you find in the work the RCMP does that you deal with more problems of elder abuse in rural communities or in urban centres? Or is it just about the same across the board?

[C/Supt Brenda Butterworth-Carr]

Madam Chair, I don't have that information readily available, but I can certainly bring it back to the committee for your awareness.

[Ruth Ellen Brosseau, NDP, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

I really appreciate that.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Could I ask a quick question?

When an officer goes to a home or responds to a complaint, how difficult or how easy is it to lay charges? How often are charges actually laid, and do you have the tools? Do we have enough laws to lay charges against those who perpetrate elder abuse?

[C/Supt Brenda Butterworth-Carr]

In response, Madam Chair, certainly within the Criminal Code there is a variety of offences that provide the police of the jurisdiction the ability when certain criteria are met.

When a member responds to a residence or to a complaint, the member will take a series of factors into consideration. Again, if there's a form of abuse, whether it's fraud, assault, sexual assault, uttering threats, criminal harassment, or another offence under the Criminal Code, we certainly will have that ability, as long as we have enough information from the victim, the witness, or whoever else may in fact be considered within the police investigation report that goes to the crown. After that point, the Department of Justice in the respective area would take over.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

So there are enough laws on the books to address this.

[C/Supt Brenda Butterworth-Carr]

Certainly with respect to the Criminal Code offences that we would respond to, there are a significant number of them available to police, as well as various pieces of provincial and territorial legislation that assist police.

[The Chair, NDP, Niki Ashton]

Thank you very much, Ms. Mathyssen.

We now have five minutes for a member of the Conservative Party.

Ms. James.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Thank you.

I just want to reiterate my colleague's expression of gratitude and respect for you. I would also like to utter the same respect for you. My father is a retired police officer from Toronto and I actually put any law enforcement right across this country pretty high up on the list of people I'm impressed with. Thank you very much for being here.

Witnesses from HRSDC were here previously and mentioned that four out of ten older adults experience some form of abuse. They stated that only one in five incidents is actually reported. I know that my colleagues across the floor have also touched on this. The question we had previously was that if only one in five is reported, how do we know that there are actually four other cases that are going unreported?

[C/Supt Brenda Butterworth-Carr]

Unfortunately, I don't have that information in terms of statistics. What I can say, though, is that with the number of initiatives and such, we certainly recognize that it is an issue. Also, based upon the types of tools, as well as awareness material and the amount of investment that the members in the field in our various detachments are engaged in, we definitely recognize that this is an issue and we are responding to it accordingly.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

If incidents are going unreported--let's say that statistic was correct--why do you think that is?

[C/Supt Brenda Butterworth-Carr]

I would suggest that there are various reasons why individuals might not necessarily come forward to make a complaint, or to say they have been the recipient of abuse, given that it's very personal in nature. Perhaps there's embarrassment attached to it, or there are other circumstances. I think it's very much an individual piece. I think we see more reporting when someone has a sense of empowerment, and part of the awareness program is to ensure that empowerment within our elders.