Status of Women Committee on May 5th, 2015

[Tammy Evans]

We are trying to change that perception within the industry. One of the things that have become very prevalent in our knowledge base going through this research program is that the industry itself is quite fractured in its initiatives. Within the industry, women are even more fractured, so we don't have enough of a voice for women. As part of CAWIC, we're trying to advance partnerships within the different organizations in the industry—unionized, non-unionized, and alternative shops—to actually speak with one voice on these issues. Regardless of it being male or female, we have to raise the profile of the industry. We have to do that through a cooperative effort, not just the industry itself.

The industry has traditionally sat back because there's been so much work available. But if the industry doesn't step up, it can't address the shortage of skilled workers and the lack of succession planning for the skilled trades. It has now recognized that this is an issue, and I think the industry is prepared to work together with government agencies and different organizations to raise the profile at the grassroots level with parents and within the schools. This is something that is going to become incredibly important, and we have to do it now. CAWIC is working with the industry through partnerships to do that.

I did want to mention that there's been a lot of discussion about the importance of raising parity within education so that more women are represented in construction and STEM education programs. There is still a significant gap between completion rates, and the completion rates are not being addressed, so the issue of women completing the program and actually entering into the workforce is still a live issue.

We have done some work in the industry and in the education system to open up more programs that attract women. There are more educational institutes going out into the market and speaking to the market to raise the profile, but there aren't enough employers participating and taking on these students. Apprenticeships aren't being completed. The women aren't getting the tickets, and even some of the men aren't getting the tickets, so we need to get the employers involved. A lot of that has to do with engaging the industry employers directly. That happens through some government initiatives and some regulatory work that needs to go hand in hand with that.

[John Barlow, Conservative, Macleod, AB]

I think this goes against what Ms. Lahey is saying. I think some of the data she is using might be old, or maybe I'm a bit off. The data we have from Status of Women shows an increase in the number of women going into the skilled trades, though maybe not into all of them. For example, I just looked it up and the number of women going in to be heavy equipment operators has doubled. The number of industrial electricians has gone up significantly. The number of women in construction has gone up significantly, and the number going into the apprenticeship program has gone up 5% in the last couple of years.

However, you're right about the number who are actually completing. We aren't hitting that. I know it's still early, but do you see programs like the Canada apprenticeship loan program, with $4,000 per training period that can be used for child care, mortgage payments, groceries, or tools—

[Tammy Evans]

It's still early, but those are very valuable programs. The challenge there is that when you go into the schools and you go into the different industries, they're actually not aware of those programs, so there's not enough profiling of those programs. Even the OYAP program, the Ontario youth apprenticeship program, is out there specifically. The YWCA is active, but we're not getting the message through the industry. We're not engaging the industry enough to get them to participate. We need a strong, active commitment from the industry employers to get engaged in this process and to hire on.

[John Barlow, Conservative, Macleod, AB]

I think that's why Irving's program is so outstanding.

[Tammy Evans]

It's an excellent program.

[John Barlow, Conservative, Macleod, AB]

I hope we can take that model and take your template across the country, because I think that's such a great partnership.

[The Chair, NDP, Hélène LeBlanc]

Thank you very much, Mr. Barlow.

Thank you, Mr. Barlow.

Mrs. Sellah, the floor is yours for five minutes.

[Djaouida Sellah, NDP, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to thank all the witnesses in attendance or joining us by video conference for their contribution to our study.

My question is for Ms. Connolly.

On your website, I saw that you have an exemplary career and that you have received some 20 honours and awards for your work. Do you think grants or higher wages for women in STEM would be an effective way to encourage them to go into those professions?

[Prof. Marie Connolly]

You mentioned higher wages, but I am wondering how those higher wages could be implemented.

That being said, I would say that grants are definitely a big help. Loans and grants are very appreciated, especially grants, since loans eventually have to be paid back. Grants mostly help women access those fields of study. Awarding grants that target women in particular can obviously help.

It's interesting to note that one study—which was not carried out by me—looked into the chosen fields of study. It compared the way boys and girls choose their field of study. By identifying the various factors that influence those decisions, the study showed that girls place far less emphasis on the wages they could earn once they graduate. Boys actually focus more on the wages than girls do. Is that because girls are less informed or because they are interested in other considerations? That is less clear.

According to the same study, the parents' education is a factor that greatly influences young girls' decision. In that study and in a number of other studies I have read, the parents' expectations and aspirations regarding their children have an influence.

[Djaouida Sellah, NDP, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Thank you.

Good afternoon, Ms. Lahey. I would also like to ask you a question.

Women in STEM occupations have lower incomes than men. We know that is the main obstacle preventing women from entering skilled trades.

Why wouldn't the income splitting included in the 2015 budget support those women who already have a fairly low income?

[Prof. Kathleen Lahey]

Well, yes. It depends entirely on the composition of the family income overall. First of all, single women and single parents will get absolutely no benefit from income splitting, which is a $2 billion program for 2015. Secondly, unless they're in the top 15% of income earners, they will not get anywhere near a fair share of tax benefit from income splitting.

At the same time, the repeal of the child tax credit has taken approximately $2 billion out of the hands of parents, many of whom are single parents, so the whole tax transfer system as it pertains to taxation within the family is pushing the very women that the government says it's so concerned about further back into the pack, as they attempt to just maintain some sort of an affordable income coming into their household. In after-tax terms, income splitting has taken that group of women a step backwards.

At the same time, this expectation that was just referred to, where young girls perhaps don't plan for higher incomes in the same way that young men do, means that the income-splitting tax benefits will actually encourage young women and women graduating from college to pay even less attention to their salaries, because they will know and will have discussed with their peers, their spouses, and their partners that in fact their paid work is perhaps worth more to the family when it's replaced with unpaid work. So while the whole country is working at trying to get women into better employment situations, we're now using tax subsidies to get them to not work.

[The Chair, NDP, Hélène LeBlanc]

Thank you very much, Ms. Lahey.

Ms. Crockatt, you have five minutes.

[Joan Crockatt, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Thank you very much to all of our witnesses today.

Ms. Lahey, you're in Sweden, correct? Can you hear me?

[Prof. Kathleen Lahey]

Yes, I'm in northern Sweden.

[Joan Crockatt, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

And you've been there since 2013.

[Prof. Kathleen Lahey]

No, I arrived yesterday.

[Joan Crockatt, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

I was just wondering. I'm really appreciative that you have, I'm sure, fought many of the front-end battles for women getting into higher income positions, and so on, but I'm wondering if it might be possible that you haven't been aware of some of the recent changes, like the women building futures program and several others that we've heard of today.

[Prof. Kathleen Lahey]

Actually I'm extremely aware of all of these programs and I have been living continuously in Canada. In 2013, I did visit as a visiting scholar at Umea University in northern Sweden, but I came right back after that three months. In fact, I produced a multi-hundred page detailed analysis of recent budgets that critiqued, specifically, those programs. I'm intimately aware of the programming in this area.

[Joan Crockatt, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Okay. I simply wondered because I saw that you were quoting some rather old data, but that's fine. I'll just leave that there.

Marie, I'd love to go into your testimony and I found that very interesting. I think it sort of takes us to the front end of some of the things we've been dealing with here for the last many months, which is how to modify girls' goals and aspirations so they're actually preparing themselves to be able to take STEM professions. Not only to get them into STEM professions, but also to let them know there are specific STEM professions that if they target themselves toward—as you've pointed out, architecture and engineering—those will lead to higher paying jobs for them.

I wondered if you could tease that out more. What do we need to tell parents? What do we need to tell young girls? What information do you think is actually a game changer for them?

[Prof. Marie Connolly]

The first thing I want to say is that the numbers I've presented to you today are an accounting exercise, not a causal exercise. I wish I could—

[Joan Crockatt, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

There are some human factors, too.

[Prof. Marie Connolly]

I wish I could say that if all women took this sort of position they would make a lot more. I can't say that for sure, but it is true that even though there's a wage gap in favour of men, some occupations seem to be higher paying.

What we need to tell them, I wish I knew. The two reports that I cite at the end of my presentation, I think, ask themselves those kinds of questions and I think they have more insight into those questions than I do. I also just told you that girls seem to pay less attention to the salary, but despite that I think it would be important to tell them that there are occupations they can have that will give them more financial freedom.

From the point of view of younger girls, that's true in many areas, not only in what they choose as a career, as a field of study, but to counteract those gender biases that have been found in literature. Simply to tell them that they're able to achieve a high rate of success and that they have the skills necessary to do that, I think is important.

I don't mean to suggest that high schools should be separated by gender, but there are studies that show that women who are in women-only high schools tend to “act like men”. By that I want to say that they have the same sort of risk and appetite for competition that women, when they are placed in a two-gender setting, don't seem to show. Women tend to shy away from competition when they're with men, but not when they're only with women. So there is this insight to what's going on, but I think it should be addressed from an early age so that girls develop a taste for those kinds of fields.

[The Chair, NDP, Hélène LeBlanc]

Thank you very much. That's all the time we have for now; it's five minutes.

Mrs. Perkins.

[Pat Perkins, Conservative, Whitby—Oshawa, ON]

Thank you all for the presentations today. I think I'll start off with Tammy Evans, if I could.

Tammy, you made a comment in response to Mr. Barlow's question, and you said that the information isn't getting out. Somehow people are not receiving the information that they need in order to have uptake on some of the programs.

Regarding advertising, there have been some very critical remarks made about the type of advertising that is done to support government programs and so on, saying it's self-serving and those sorts of things. I'm hearing quite the opposite here, that we need to get those programs out there for people, for the uptake, and I'm very grateful to hear that because it's certainly something that I'm going to take to heart and advocate that we do more for. I really appreciate those comments.

With respect to the ladies here from Irving, there were some comments about early pathways, getting in there when they're quite young, the Techsploration and grade nine girls. I think Doreen might have been the one who spoke about that. Can you expand on how young...? You're talking about grade nine, and then we have other comments here saying that this should occur at the elementary level, and we've had this discussion with several groups who have presented.

Is grade nine the base that you've been achieving or are you trying to go a little bit lower in age?

[Anna Marenick]

What we're trying to do is partner with established channels. There are a lot of organizations who are doing really good work. We have no intention of re-creating the wheel, so Techsploration is an established program in Nova Scotia that works with schools, targeted at the grade nine level. The school would be assigned a mentor. The girls would go to the employer and then the employer would go to the school.