Evidence of meeting #11 for Status of Women in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was training.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Director General, Policy and External Relations, Policy and External Relations Directorate, Status of Women Canada
Perhaps. I don't think that we can give a complete answer right now about whether or not GBA itself is part of public policy programs. If you like, we could do the research and get back to the committee.
Liberal
Karen Ludwig Liberal New Brunswick Southwest, NB
I'll just give you a scenario. I had a call earlier today from a lawyer. The lawyer was interested in talking with me about gender equity, gender parity in the recruitment or the hiring of judges in Canada. When I'm looking at the list of government departments, I don't see the justice department.
Was there an option of how you selected the different departments?
Manager, Gender-Based Analysis, Status of Women Canada
Actually, the Department of Justice has been engaged in GBA for quite a long time. Of the 25 original action plan departments that were part of our 2009 action plan, the Department of Justice was a part of it. They're actually very engaged in GBA and have, actually, a GBA unit.
The committee might want to hear from them. Certainly they've developed some important tools, especially in relation to GBA and research. They've developed some tools that are actually on our website now. In fact, the Department of Justice is quite engaged in GBA.
Liberal
Karen Ludwig Liberal New Brunswick Southwest, NB
Did they introduce GBA in terms of recruitment of lawyers from the bar to the bench?
Manager, Gender-Based Analysis, Status of Women Canada
It wouldn't be something I'd be familiar with, unfortunately.
Conservative
Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB
Thank you.
Can you summarize for me the chief objective of GBA?
Director General, Policy and External Relations, Policy and External Relations Directorate, Status of Women Canada
Go ahead.
Manager, Gender-Based Analysis, Status of Women Canada
Obviously, it's to ensure that as we're developing policies and programs, that we've taken men and women and their diverse experiences into account.
For me, and I do a lot of speaking on GBA with diverse audiences. I try to highlight that gender-based analysis is really about challenging your personal assumptions as a policy-maker. We all walk around the world with a lot of assumptions based on how our lives have gone or the people we know, without pausing to think whether we might be accidentally—unintentionally, not because we want to do this—replicating our own norms into our policies and programs as federal officials.
It's really about taking a moment to ask these few questions. Have I consulted numerous sources? Have I relied on my own personal views, unintentionally, when making policies and programs? If I were to say what the objective of GBA is, it would be to ensure that as a government we have policies and programs that reflect the diversity of Canadians.
Conservative
Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB
As of right now, how many departments are currently working with your department in order to implement GBA?
Manager, Gender-Based Analysis, Status of Women Canada
About 30 have formally signed on to our action plan, which means that there have been agreements at the deputy minister levels that will implement a GBA framework with a set number of elements.
Above and beyond that, we have an interdepartmental committee that has about 35 members. That number goes up and down at different times as different departments and agencies become engaged. Formally, I would say about 35, but in terms of practitioners, there are GBA practitioners all over.
Conservative
Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB
What would you say are some of the common reasons that would cause people or departments not to engage in GBA?
Director General, Policy and External Relations, Policy and External Relations Directorate, Status of Women Canada
The Auditor General's report talked about barriers to gender-based analysis. They pointed to a number of factors. Some of it was leadership, some of it was time, some of it was resources and focus being put on that issue specifically.
As I mentioned in my opening remarks, we are going to be going out to departments to see where some of the other barriers may lie. We have some hunches. Our action plan, for example, I think has been very successful. It came out of the 2009 Auditor General's report to get departments to have a gender focal point, a gender champion, and an action plan. If I were to guess, one thing that we'll find out is that it became a little bit of a ghetto, just a bit of a check mark.
Hopefully our actions going forward will also help address that, but it's definitely a time for reflection, and we're looking to senior managers across government to give us some feedback on that.
Conservative
Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB
One thing you mentioned as a possible barrier was the resources involved. I imagine there would be a monetary resource—this would cost something—but also that there would be a resource involved in terms of an employee having to spend time doing this.
Can you comment on what the dollar figure would be and what the time requirement would be?
Director General, Policy and External Relations, Policy and External Relations Directorate, Status of Women Canada
I'm afraid I wouldn't be able to do so. It would vary enormously from initiative to initiative, so it would be impossible, because GBA affects everything from climate change to much more distinct initiatives. It would be impossible to put a time frame on that.
Conservative
Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB
I guess I'm just wondering whether, if we wanted to look at the accessibility of GBA across all government departments, and if every single government department were to include GBA, we would have a dollar figure and a human resource figure. If we're going to do this, then we're going to have to budget for it.
What would that number look like and what would the man-hours look like if we were to engage in this across all government departments in Canada?
Director General, Policy and External Relations, Policy and External Relations Directorate, Status of Women Canada
We really have not looked at it in that way. It's supposed to be part of everybody's training and job descriptions, and departments have seen it that way as well.
For example, ISED, the industry department, has made it mandatory for all of their employees to take GBA training, so it's a built-in, integrated part of their daily work, not an add-on that is an added expense of departments.
Conservative
Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB
That makes sense. Thank you.
All around this table, we've all done the GBA online course. One thing was that there are six GBA elements: identifying a responsibility centre, undertaking an organizational needs assessment, providing training and tools, undertaking a GBA pilot initiative, making a policy statement or statement of intent, and having an ongoing monitoring process.
As the lead of my organization, being the member of Parliament, I look at this list, and it's incredibly cumbersome for me. Could you comment with regard to that and suggest how we might be able to get the list down so that it feels less cumbersome for someone like me?
Manager, Gender-Based Analysis, Status of Women Canada
What you're describing is our GBA framework. We talk about who is formally engaged in GBA in the 30 departments; we've engaged them to integrate those six elements department-wide.
I think we've tried not to make it too cumbersome. The idea is that you develop some expertise within your department, that you know who is responsible for it, that you have someone who is making sure that it's happening, that you've done some level of training with your staff. The pilot initiative is really not meant to be something separate or cumbersome; in fact, it's meant to make you aware of applying GBA to an existing policy or program to see how it has changed. Those are really the elements for success.
Certainly if you look internationally at where gender is incorporated in government structures, those are the key things you need to ensure long-term success. Importantly, the key thing that you need in place is to make sure that GBA isn't one person's responsibility and if that person leaves the department there's no GBA capacity. What we have tried to do is give the elements of a structure such as you described that will make GBA sustainable for a department—not necessarily for an individual, but for a large department.
Conservative
Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB
I have a quick comment on that.
I see the point in terms of its becoming a way of thinking—I guess I would describe it as that—and for me it's probably something I am fairly aware of, but when I look at a list of requirements, it appears intimidating at first glance.
Conservative
NDP
Sheila Malcolmson NDP Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC
Thank you, Chair.
Thank you for your work and for being here and for being the lead on this important issue. I think there's lots of common cause around the table. We want this to work well.
I'll express my slight despair or cynicism around how long we've had.... There have been two Auditor General's reports. In both cases Status of Women has said they agreed with all the AG recommendations. They were going to establish a plan. That was in 2009.
Then in 2015, they said they were going to establish a five-year progress report and they were going to report in 2020.
I'm wondering what will be different in 2020. I don't want us to be like Groundhog Day here. I think the thing we just keep talking about is what if it were mandatory? We have some good results from Immigration Canada, where it's written right into their act. What would that look like for Status of Women as sort of an enforcer, someone to ensure that a mandatory requirement to conduct GBA across all departments was a recommendation of this committee?
Director General, Policy and External Relations, Policy and External Relations Directorate, Status of Women Canada
It is mandatory in IRCC's legislation, and that means they do a good job reporting back to Parliament on GBA. One thing we have also talked about extensively is that even if it becomes mandatory, that would not be enough.
You definitely still need the leadership, the monitoring and reporting, the analysis of barriers, the checking back in, the improving of the situation, and really the dedication to doing that kind of analysis.
Whether or not it becomes mandatory will be a decision of this government. It's something that was raised in the public accounts committee as well. There are different ways in which that could happen, but it's something I'm not really in a position to comment on with this committee right now. There are a variety of ways. I suppose it could be in distinct departments' acts as it is for IRCC, but there are other mechanisms and ways of going about that.
In other countries, a range of different things have been done. Canada would have to analyze those. All the lawyers would have to get involved and analyze the pros and cons of implementing legislation similar to what we see in some other countries.
NDP
Sheila Malcolmson NDP Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC
I think that's very much what we're talking about here. Can we convince Parliament to take some steps that would actually mean we're going to get a different result the next time the AG looks at this issue?
I guess a parallel to the Official Languages Act would be something that also has more teeth. That was a commitment by Parliament at that time, and it's something that then carries on, and there's an agency that is responsible for being the particular watchdog on that issue. It has had good impact. That just means it happens. It's just automatic, along with, of course, all the training and support and education and encouragement that naturally your group would be doing.
Have there been any conversations internally around that? Are there any barriers within the department to being that sort of enforcer or having someone to ensure that it happens?
