Status of Women Committee on June 1st, 2017

[Lynsey Thornton]

We have various salary band levels. They're not public, but we do use them as a benchmark to make sure we're not bringing people in at the wrong level. I have definitely heard of a poor trend in the technology industry, particularly with smaller companies, that if somebody comes in and asks for a lower salary, they'll happily pay them that lower salary. This essentially prevents us from doing something like that if we were to make a bad judgment call on it.

We also review salaries twice a year. If somebody joined the company four years ago, when salaries were a little bit lower—when we were a less successful company, and when we actually did pay less at the time—we make sure that we up their salary so that they remain within that band as we grow as a company as well.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Thank you very much.

[Caroline Codsi]

May I jump in on that topic?

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Sure, go ahead, but very quickly. I want to give Ms. Damoff a chance to ask a question.

[Caroline Codsi]

Okay. That's all right.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

You have one minute and 15 seconds left.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Shifrah, my question is for you. The previous witness talked about the benefits of doing an unpaid internship, or one that's paid less than minimum wage. I wonder if you could comment on the economic status of those who are able to take advantage of unpaid internships after school—not during school. As well, do you have any views on unpaid internships?

[Shifrah Gadamsetti]

I do, both personal and with regard to CASA.

I'll bring it back to a report that we released on student employment. Essentially our research has shown that with unpaid internships, you have the exact same success rate as someone who hasn't participated in one, with a 33% chance of finding employment. But if you do have a paid internship, your chances double. You have a 67% chance of finding gainful employment in your field of study or area of interest.

If you look back at and cross-identify those things with the feminization of labour, fields such as nursing, social work, health care, or any of those that actually require unpaid internships that aren't even optional, you are required to participate in an unpaid practicum in order to earn your accreditation. You are then also automatically set up to be less likely to find gainful employment after you've graduated. We also look at things like representation and someone's exposure to the workforce. Someone who is likely to have a paid internship is less likely to be distracted by also working on top of that in order to fund their education, and things like that.

We really, really do believe in the value of paid internships. The data shows us that if you are able to compensate someone, they are more willing to be engaged with their work. They're more willing to participate in the culture of the workforce rather than feeling dejected or tired or having to juggle multiple responsibilities, especially financial, at the end of the day.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Very good.

Now we'll go to my colleague Ms. Harder for seven minutes.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Thank you very much.

I'll start with a question for you, Ms. Codsi. You talked about “sponsors” and how beneficial they are in helping to champion a woman and to introduce her to people, to network, and to perhaps move through the ranks or find those connections that are helpful to her being able to get to the places she wants to go.

At your your organization or elsewhere, how are sponsors encouraged to get involved and champion a woman? Whether it's another female sponsor or a male sponsor, how can we encourage greater engagement there?

[Caroline Codsi]

We work with both men and women. First of all, we encourage women to go after those male champions and get closer to them, because you still see a separation in the workplace. It's still the old boys' club. It's still the same people who go for a drink after work. Women don't go with them. We encourage women to have these conversations with the men who they think could be good mentors. Often when you have a mentor, they will become a sponsor.

We have a mentoring program at Women in Governance. Our mentoring program is for women who are over 35 and who are very close to that glass ceiling. We ask the mentors, both men and women, to go beyond just the one-on-one mentoring and to have opportunities to bring these women to functions and to the galas they are attending, etc., so that these women are also more out there. That's another issue we see. Women don't network. They go home after work. That's a problem.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Why is that? Why do women struggle with having the confidence to initiate—go over, shake a hand, introduce themselves, exchange a business card—or take an interest in a position that they're, let's say, 80% qualified for but not the other 20%, though they could learn those skills if mentored? Why do women hesitate with things like that?

[Caroline Codsi]

I think it's going to take decades before that changes. It's very slow, because we've been brought up this way. Women have certain qualities that make them amazing leaders, but there's also a downside to this.

What types of qualities are these? For instance, they're very inclusive, very democratic, very empathetic—they have a lot of empathy. That's wonderful. When they have to negotiate in a business development situation, however, they don't succeed as much as men, especially if it has something to do with their own person, such as, for instance, negotiating their salary. If they get a promotion, they'll be so thrilled about the promotion they'll forget to ask about the money that goes with it.

What I wanted to add about the gender wage gap is that in the corporate parity certification we're launching, one element we're requiring of corporate Canada is to stop asking women during the interview, “How much are you currently making?” We're only replicating that scheme of unfairness and injustice, because if you're making 20% less elsewhere, why wouldn't I keep paying you 20% less? Just look at the candidate's qualifications and how much you are willing to pay. That's all that matters, not what she's making now.

I've been lying about my salary throughout—

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Caroline Codsi]

I've just completed 25 years in corporate Canada, the last 10 years as VP, executive VP, national VP. I've always lied about my salary. I can tell you that when I left my last job, the CFO leaked my salary, and there was a huge scandal, because I was the highest-paid senior vice-president of this company. If I were a man, though, there wouldn't have been a scandal—somebody has to be the highest paid as VP—but oh, my God, it was a woman.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

It's an interesting point. Thank you. I appreciate your being willing to share that.

My next question is for Ms. Thornton. It sounds as though Shopify is doing some incredible things. I took the time to read a little bit about what it is that you folks are doing. You talked a little about this. I don't have the exact quote, but you said something along the lines that you take the time to educate yourselves with regard to cultural trends and attitudes towards what's going on, and then you try to mitigate the risks of having negative trends and attitudes perpetuated within Shopify.

Can expand a little on what you mean by saying you educate yourself or maintain an understanding of what's going on? What do you mean by that? What are you doing to come against some of those negative trends you're observing in order to create a different culture within Shopify?

[Lynsey Thornton]

There are two things. We've started taking a more serious look at diversity and inclusion in the company, as of about 18 months ago, when we hired a director-level person. She is not responsible for the advancement of this—everybody in the company is—but she helps us identify specific areas in which we can improve. She has started, for the first time in the company, tracking some breakdowns of the people we have and helping us move forward to understanding where we have gaps in areas that we might want to specifically address both for diversity and inclusion.

Do you have something you want to add?

[Alexandra Clark]

Also, we have an entire team that's the culture team. That team is entirely focused on how we communicate with each other, how we're getting together, how we're sharing problems. We say that “default to open” and “be vulnerable” is one of the cultures at Shopify.

We host things, such as a town hall every single week on a Friday. The whole company stops. We get together, we stream it live to all of the other offices, we allow employees to take 15 minutes to present. Employees talk about personal things that they're going through, they talk about professional things that they've done. Always, when we think of the makeup of who's presenting, we ensure that we then start going after people who potentially aren't using those platforms, aren't using that opportunity. As Lynsey mentioned, the director of inclusion and diversity at the company is watching those presentations and tracking them through employee engagement.

We do something called “the big moral question lunch”. It has to be inclusive, so all employees can Google in and be present. You talk about big questions that are on people's minds, and it's a safe space to do so. Then there's always follow-up.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

That's excellent.

That's your time.

We're going to Ms. Malcolmson, for seven minutes.

[Sheila Malcolmson, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

All three witnesses, we're going to use all of your work.

Shopify, I really appreciate your call to action on a universal accessible child care program. It's really important to hear.

I want to ask the Women in Governance witness something just really briefly. I don't know if you heard the previous witness, Ms. Benson, talk about how, when you have quotas, you have unqualified seat warmers. It was hard to listen to.

[Caroline Codsi]

Who is she?

[Sheila Malcolmson, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

From what you studied, is there evidence that, when you have quotas, you end up with unqualified women representing corporate boards?

[Caroline Codsi]

Not at all. That actually really hurts my ears.

[Sheila Malcolmson, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Mine too.

[Caroline Codsi]

You know, when we sometimes say that women are women's worst enemy, that's a good example.

No. First of all it's demonstrated that, when you have more women around the table and diversity as a whole, you get to a more robust decision-making, obviously, because you have different perspectives. Why do we not wonder whether the men are competent? Why are we always asking if these women are going to be...? How are we choosing them? Are we choosing them because they are educated and experienced? Then why would they be incompetent?

So, no.

I think the reason why we need quotas or some form of encouragement for corporate Canada to get on that bandwagon is that it's going to be a very positive impact for our economy. Did you know that 40% of boards in Canada don't have one woman? We're not even talking about parity. We're talking about boards that don't even have their token woman.

We have asked officially for Justin Trudeau to sign letters to all chairs of these boards that have no women. David Cameron did that in the U.K. a few years ago. I met with Susan Vinnicombe who is on the steering committee of Lord Davies, and they did a phenomenal job without quotas. They have no quotas in the U.K., but they did a phenomenal job with a continued focus. They really asked things like this. It came from the top.

I've had the opportunity to meet Justin Trudeau three times. I told him it's great to have parity on your cabinet, and it's wonderful to say you're a feminist, but that hasn't trickled down into the corporate world.

A letter would be a strong signal.

Maybe also because we know it's going to be good for our economy, we might consider tax breaks for those companies that have put an emphasis on parity, because we know that they will perform better financially. It shouldn't be any loss to the.... I don't know if the government gives a priority to suppliers that have parity, or tend towards parity, or demonstrate that they.... Does the government put an emphasis on this?