Status of Women Committee on Feb. 13th, 2018

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

I call the meeting to order.

Good afternoon, and welcome to the 89th meeting of the Standing Committee on the Status of Women. Today's meeting is in public.

As we continue our study of indigenous women in the federal justice and correctional systems, we are pleased to have joining us today, by video conference from Vancouver, Ms. Darlene Shackelly, Executive Director of the Native Courtworker and Counselling Association of British Columbia; by video conference from Edmonton, Ms. Audra Andrews, representing the Union of Safety and Justice Employees; and by video conference from Calgary, Mr. Lowell Carroll, Manager of the Calgary, Red Deer, and Siksika Legal Services Centres of Legal Aid Alberta.

As well, from Regroupement des centres d'amitié autochtones du Québec, we have Madame Claudie Paul, Services Director, and Madame Jacinthe Poulin, Health and Social Services Advisor. I'm very sorry for slaughtering any language so far today.

Thank you very much.

Each group will have seven minutes to speak, after which I will be cutting you off, because we do have shortened time.

We're going to start off with Ms. Darlene Shackelly. You have seven minutes.

[Darlene Shackelly, Executive Director, Native Courtworker and Counselling Association of British Columbia]

Hello. My name is Darlene Shackelly. I'm the Executive Director of the Native Courtworker and Counselling Association of British Columbia.

Our organization was formed in 1973 because of the high numbers of indigenous people who were pleading guilty as they were going through the criminal justice system. We have 30 workers throughout the province of British Columbia

When we were asked to give a presentation to this committee, it was on the understanding that we are not workers within the federal corrections system, but rather the group that actually deals with the people who are coming into the criminal justice system charged with a criminal offence. It is our responsibility to ensure that they fully understand what they've been charged with and that they obtain the referrals necessary on the charge they're facing within the system.

We're on the unceded territory of the Coast Salish people: the Musqueam, Squamish, and Tsleil-Waututh nations. That is where I'm streaming from.

I would also like to thank our board of directors for allowing me to come today to give a presentation.

I want to give some background, and you've probably heard it many times, of the residential school trauma as it affects indigenous women who are in the institutions. We know that high numbers of women who are in the centres are women who have children and women who are facing trauma-related health issues. It is our opinion that once you're disconnected from your culture, the chance of staying within the system is a likelihood.

What we're concerned about is the actual parenting of children. Since 2006, the aboriginal population has grown 42.5%. That's more than four times the growth rate of the non-indigenous population for the same period. I would point out that these are not the children who attended residential school; these are the next generation of children. Our caseload shows that indigenous women are actually being charged with more violent cases than occurred before. It is this generation that we need to focus on.

We also know that most of the women who are in the institutions ended up in systems of foster care, in group homes, or were adopted. It is our belief that it's time to take a look at supporting the women who are in the institutions, especially the ones who have children, around technology feeds.

In the community of Bella Bella-Bella Coola, we have technology for video court streaming into Vancouver, from a very isolated community. It's about time the federal government looked at streaming to support families and the children the inmate has and looked at how we can make sure that indigenous women have a connection to their families and their children.

The support system for children of parents who are incarcerated has been studied quite intensively, but we actually have to look more at the women who are in federal institutions and be able to stream in isolated communities where a lot of indigenous women are from and be able to access technology so that they have visits from their communities by their children and their family members. That would go a long way to keeping the connection in place, so that once they're released, the connection is there already.

Our final recommendation is to invest in an indigenous women's justice panel to develop a five-year plan and a federal investment strategy to address the issues that I have just mentioned.

Thank you for your time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Thank you very much.

We're now going to move over to Ms. Audra Andrews for seven minutes.

[Audra Andrews, Union of Safety and Justice Employees]

Good afternoon, and thank you for having me. I usually feel more comfortable in front of a room full of offenders, so I apologize if I stumble a little.

I would add that the Correctional Service of Canada does not look kindly on those staff members who would speak out, but I believe that your questions deserve a perspective from those of us working on the front line.

I want to stress the following areas for immediate action that I believe should be pursued for increased positive outcomes with federally incarcerated indigenous women.

One, increase supports for women with mental health issues. Two, review employment programs and look at funded community partnerships outside the current CSC program model. Three, revisit the role of elders to free them from paperwork, and hire elders to work in the community. Increase the numbers of indigenous staff and parole board members. Finally, have real and meaningful consultation with the staff who are doing the work.

With recent current events in the justice system, I believe that the study you have undertaken is more important than ever to build relationships with indigenous people and renew their faith that they will be treated humanely and fairly. I agree completely with the testimony from previous witnesses about the reasons for the over-incarceration of indigenous women.

I struggled with what to say in this short statement, as I often feel as if I have a foot in two worlds: one in the world of the Correctional Service of Canada, with its policies and academics, and the other as an indigenous woman who has a similar background, in many ways, to the people I work with.

I am speaking with the blessing of the Union of Safety and Justice Employees, of which I am a member along with other parole officers, aboriginal liaison officers, program officers, and other support staff. I am a front-line community parole officer with 16 years of experience and I am currently working with an all-female caseload. I previously worked with women on conditional release, between 2002 and 2007.

I have also worked with the Parole Board of Canada in elder-assisted hearings, as well as at an urban indigenous organization, and also with at-risk youth.

I listened to the testimony of previous witnesses and I echo what they said: that indigenous women need help to heal from their trauma and reconnect with their families and their communities. I have witnessed first-hand the pain and trauma of these women and their struggles to reintegrate into the community, but I have also had the enormous privilege to witness them change their lives dramatically if they are provided appropriate support and guidance.

Many offenders say to me that being in the community is sometimes more difficult than being incarcerated, because in the community, for example, they must negotiate poor employment opportunities, lack of affordable housing, and child welfare issues, all the while dealing with their personal issues.

CSC needs to reinvest not only in institutional operations but also in the community if they wish to increase their results with this population. There has been some progress in community investments, as recently evidenced by expansions of section 81 facilities such as Buffalo Sage, but this model is not always viable in some centres with smaller numbers of indigenous offenders.

CSC should think about revisiting past programs that were cut, such as the private home placement program, which is a possible solution to the above problem and could accommodate low-risk, low-needs offenders in both urban and rural areas.

Other suggestions for improvement in the institution and community include offering realistic employment skills and training, as well as education programs and work releases, to increase the women's marketable employment skills and to give them the ability to support themselves and their children.

I would like to specifically highlight the increasing complexity of cases, including those of women with serious mental health issues, violence, complex health issues, and serious addictions, that challenge the capacity of staff and infrastructure in both the institution and the community. We need such resources as psychologists, mental health nurses, and bedspace in specialized mental health units to deal with these cases, as there are often wait-lists to access these and a very small number of beds available in regional psychiatric centres.

For other offenders, increased capacity in the Pathways units in the institutions should be looked at. The aboriginal intervention centres they have proposed for institutions need more development, however, and should include more meaningful consultation with staff before this initiative is finalized, to see what works and what does not.

CSC also needs to revisit the role of elders, as we dishonour them and undermine their role in tying them to paperwork. They need to be free to work with offenders to heal through ceremony and one-to-one work. A full-time or even part-time dedicated elder in the community for women who are residing on their own is also needed, as indigenous women's failures in the community are often tied to their inability to access these cultural interventions outside the institution or section 81 facility.

Recent and current events in the justice system this week illustrate the importance of having more indigenous staff members and parole board members if you have high numbers of incarcerated indigenous women. CSC clearly needs a radical approach, and all options should be considered, including re-engaging our community partners and supporting them to offer alternatives to the one-size-fits-all CSC program model. There is an overreliance on actuarial tools with regard to program referrals and a movement away from allowing parole officers to exercise professional discretion.

CSC should also focus not just on treating indigenous women as victims, but on empowering them and treating them as survivors. Treatment interventions noted above should reflect this.

The answer to the committee's question is, of course, to ensure that these women never reach the federal system, through better use of diversion programs, increasing education regarding indigenous issues among professionals in the justice system, making Gladue reports more available during sentencing, and working with the provinces on child welfare issues.

However, once these women are incarcerated, CSC must ensure that no further harm is done and that the women we work with are in a better position than when they first came to us. In many instances, staff are overwhelmed, under-resourced, afraid to speak out, and not confident that they will be listened to by the organization.

I've often said that parole officers and other members of the case management team work in the shadows where many people fear to tread, exposing ourselves as we are witness to unbelievable trauma and pain. Nevertheless, staff believe in the importance of the work we do. We simply need the tools, training, resources, and support from management to assist these women to reassert their roles as mothers, aunts, daughters, and healthy, productive, positive members of the community.

I believe there's a recognition by CSC that change is required; however, it will take time and a radical change in approach for this to occur.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Excellent. Thank you so much.

We're now going to move on for seven minutes to Mr. Lowell Carroll, Manager of Calgary, Red Deer, and Siksika legal services.

[Lowell Carroll, Manager of Calgary, Red Deer, and Siksika Legal Services Centre, Legal Aid Alberta, As an Individual]

Thank you.

My name is Lowell Carroll, and I'm the Manager for the Legal Services Centres in Calgary, Red Deer, and Siksika Nation. I'm a former member of the FASD network in Red Deer, Alberta, and I'm also a current member of the Justice Sector Constellation, which is a committee that's composed of various stakeholders in the community and in the province to work towards improving the justice system. Today I'm speaking just on behalf of myself about my individual experiences and observations working within the justice system.

I was asked to speak about specific issues regarding indigenous women's access to justice in Canada and to provide my feedback on specific issues around incarceration rates and penalties imposed on indigenous women in Canada.

While I acknowledge that it is absolutely important to discuss these topics, it's reasonable to assume that this committee knows the statistics regarding the incarceration rates for indigenous women and understands that they're extremely problematic. Hence the reason for this study today.

We know indigenous women are the fastest-growing prisoner population. We know they're overrepresented in nearly every facet of the justice system, so for me, it's much more valuable if we focus on the various interconnected social and legal issues that perpetuate this problem and focus on cause and prevention.

Before I start with my observations or any of my feedback, I'd like to start out by making a statement.

It is my contention that in order for us to make any sort of positive impact on these social and legal issues, there needs to be a drastic shift in how we think about justice. We need to figure out or decide whether the justice system exists as a conduit for punishment or retribution, or whether the focus of the justice system is on prevention, rehabilitation, and creating a society that is just for all. We need to acknowledge that in its current state, our justice system doesn't function to prevent crime, it doesn't rehabilitate inmates, and it doesn't create a just society. In fact, in my experience, I find the system in many ways perpetuates poverty and creates various social issues and social inequality.

It's important to acknowledge that historically there are systemic issues that have a negative impact on the way aboriginal women perceive the justice system. Many do not see the justice system as a place where they can get well or improve themselves. They see it largely as a system of punishment and a place where they get lost and forgotten.

This is why I'm a strong supporter of community courts, which is what I'd like to advocate for today. There is a pilot project in Vancouver, which is why I bring this up, and we are working on a pilot project in Calgary through the committee I'm working on. How that would work is basically by having a crown that's willing to work with the defence in order to come up with some sort of strategic plan and support system for the accused. To me, this is probably the most impactful system we could have. When the accused comes before the court, we often do not take a look at the reasons they ended up in court in the first place. The justice system functions by looking at what was done. When it looks at the “why” factor, it usually looks at it in relation to sentencing, not prevention.

Community courts aim to tackle these issues of poverty, domestic violence, homelessness, displacement, and historical issues by identifying the systemic issues that led to the accused being in court, and then setting them up with community supports that can assist them in resolving these issues.

Additionally, in theory the crown would hold the accused accountable throughout the process by not withdrawing the charges until these programs are completed. This helps not only aboriginal women, but every Albertan who's experiencing issues in the justice system. As I mentioned, there are programs similar to this that work very well. Actually, there's another family program in Siksika, which I'm a manager of, that is a family program dealing with domestic violence. It operates like a community court, and it's very successful.

One of the major issues I see in our justice system is a lack of holistic practices and insight into the interconnectedness of social and legal issues faced by aboriginal women and aboriginal people in general. I acknowledge that there are various programs in the correctional system that are intended to be aboriginal-focused, and they indeed try to focus on prevention and healing. The problem, however, is that many of these programs are only available once a person becomes a federal or provincial inmate in an institution. To me, these programs are available far too late to be as impactful as they need to be. There's also obviously an issue with these being less available to aboriginal women, which is also problematic and unfair.

When I was on the board for the FASD network in Red Deer, we came across a report on the Edmonton Institution for Women, and we discovered that 100% of women in the institution were aboriginal, and we suspected that a large portion of them suffered from FASD. Aboriginal women make up the fastest-growing prison population, as I mentioned, and they're overrepresented in segregation. Actually, they're almost twice as likely to be overrepresented in maximum security units in segregation.

If you examine these numbers, you can see the abhorrent cycle of injustice. You have a population that suffers from poverty, domestic violence, mental health issues, and displacement, and because of these issues we end up seeing these people in the justice system. They become incarcerated, they are placed in segregation, they aren't treated for their brain injuries or mental health issues, their families become separated, and they get pushed further into poverty and isolation. To put it bluntly, there is no healing, and there is no focus on prevention that I can see.

I am running out of time, so I'm going to skip a little bit, but I mention in my notes that community courts are seen as ineffective because they are seen as a way for the accused to somehow avoid their prison sentences. When we look at victims, however—the ones I have interviewed and talked with—the perception of the public is that the justice system exists for retribution, yet no matter how long the sentence is, no matter how harsh the punishment, the victims often feel unsatisfied. They are unsatisfied with the justice system.

For me, it's because they recognize the perpetual failure of the system. They realize that longer sentences are not statistically linked to deterrence in crime. They also realize that the accused often leaves prison without being rehabilitated and in fact sometimes in a worse state than before going to prison.

To my mind, the best way for the victim to heal is to know that whatever happened to them and whatever harm the accused caused them will not happen to another person again. They need to be able to see that the justice system is actually fruitful and that some good will come out of it. Again I would say that community courts are the best way to administer this type of justice.

In closing, I'll just say that we really need to take a hard look at the justice system and decide what its purpose is, and we need to be accountable for that statement. If it's about rehabilitation, if it's about making a just society, these changes really need to be made.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Excellent. Thank you so much.

We're now going to move over to Claudie Paul and Jacinthe. You have seven minutes.

[Claudie Paul, Services Director, Regroupement des centres d'amitié autochtones du Québec inc.]

Good afternoon, my name is Claudie Paul, an Innu from the Mashteuiatsh First Nation.

Today, we are representing the Regroupement des centres d'amitié autochtones du Québec, the provincial organization of friendship centres in this province. The friendship centre movement is active across Canada. There are about 120 friendship centres across the country and one provincial association in each province. All friendship centres have the same mission across Canada. It is the largest service infrastructure.

We advocate for indigenous rights and interests in cities. Associations support the development of services within friendship centres in cities. Quebec has nine friendship centres in the following cities: Chibougamau, La Tuque, Joliette, Maniwaki, Montréal, Roberval, Senneterre, Sept-Îles and Trois-Rivières.

Two new centres have been opened in the past two years. They are hubs for indigenous community services, living environments and cultural roots. That's sort of what urban centres represent. Naturally, democratic organizations emerge from communities. The efforts of the indigenous population in cities help centres emerge. We are talking about 50 integrated and interconnected services.

We work in the following areas: early childhood, family and youth, skills development, employability, justice, increasingly, educational success, health, social services, as well as social and economic development. We provide a continuum of services. People who arrive in the cities need support. Today, 53.2% of indigenous people in Quebec live in cities. This percentage is much higher than elsewhere in Canada. There are many reasons for moving to the cities, including housing, education, work and other reasons, including the desire to improve living conditions. We will soon look at how this relates to justice.

I will now give the floor to Ms. Poulin.

[Jacinthe Poulin, Health and Social Services Advisor, Regroupement des centres d'amitié autochtones du Québec inc.]

Good afternoon.

My name is Jacinthe Poulin and I am a Health and Social Services Advisor for the Regroupement des centres d'amitié autochtone du Québec. My background is in criminology. So I am very interested in the topic being studied today.

We have had various concerns about the directions suggested for today's discussion.

First, the Gladue reports are underused in Quebec compared to the rest of Canada, which we think may have an influence not only on the judicial process that leads indigenous women to serve sentences in a penitentiary, but also on sentencing.

We also want to share with you today one of our other concerns about the lack of understanding of the justice system and the processes. The result of this lack of understanding is that indigenous accused plead guilty more often.

The traditional way of settling First Nations and Inuit conflicts leads people to admit to committing criminal acts when it would sometimes be in their interest to plead not guilty. We think it is important to point this out.

We would also like to talk about one of the recommendations of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada, which issued two calls for action on training lawyers and law students on indigenous realities and cultural competence development. That's an aspect we want to share with you today.

There is also the way the correctional system treats women. We also have concerns about the actuarial risk management tools used by the Correctional Service of Canada. Those tools are systematically discriminatory, since they take into account static risk factors, such as age and sex, but mainly dynamic risk factors, those related to economic living conditions, poverty, addiction and mental health problems. Other witnesses have mentioned all those aspects.

As you know, in the case of incarcerated indigenous people, using such dynamic factors to analyze the risk will often result in a higher security classification. As our colleagues have pointed out, indigenous people often end up with maximum or enhanced maximum security, which means that they are considered to be high-risk, high-needs offenders. Indigenous female offenders are more often placed in isolation than non-indigenous female offenders and they are released on parole less often. Those are concerns for us.

There has been a change in the tools being used. We have moved from the level of service or case management inventory (LS/CMI) to the security classification scale, but both are actuarial tools.

Furthermore, security classifications have an impact on the programs to which indigenous female inmates can have access. Clearly, when a female inmate has a maximum security or enhanced maximum security classification, it is difficult to access certain programs.

Quebec has a penitentiary for women that offers those programs, in Joliette. We were told that the small number of women and the fact that they are often assigned a high security classification means that they do not have access to correctional programs. There is only one indigenous healing centre for women in Canada, in Saskatchewan. Of course, women in Quebec do not have access to that healing centre. In addition, section 81 of the Corrections and Conditional Release Act refers to those healing centres. The first criterion for going to those centres is that the offender is able to obtain a minimum security classification or, as the case may be, a medium security classification. This means that women do not have access to those healing centres.

Our experience on the ground shows that indigenous communities and indigenous people in urban areas are divided on traditional healing. Not all indigenous women adhere to traditional healing and may not be comfortable with programs for the general population. So there is a lack of services for those women. Cultural reappropriation is not the solution for all women.

Over time, various strategies have been put in place by the Correctional Service of Canada. It would be interesting to find out the outcome of the evaluation of those strategies. We are talking about hiring aboriginal staff—

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

The interpreters are having a hard time following.

[Jacinthe Poulin]

I'm sorry.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

It's okay. Just slow it down a little bit. We'll get you a little extra time.

[Jacinthe Poulin]

I have a lot of things to say, and it's a short time.

Various strategies put in place involve hiring indigenous staff, but they are subject to prison and correctional logic. That's one of the shortcomings that we are seeing.

In addition, in terms of reintegration, there was some discussion about the fact that indigenous women are less eligible for parole. Furthermore, in general, there is no transition between penitentiary and urban communities or indigenous communities, if women want to go back there. Some indigenous women want to stay in urban areas, but those women are not supported.

In Quebec, there is a halfway house, and of 40 places available, only one or two are given to indigenous women. It's a very small part of the pool of services available to those women.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

We are going to have to cut this off. I gave you an extra 30 seconds, but we will have to now get into our line of questioning.

We're going to start off with seven minutes from Pam Damoff.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you, Chair, and thank you to all of our witnesses.

Before I start my questions, Audra, I want to assure you that you can't suffer ramifications at work from anything you say at committee, and if you do, please let us know; we'll make sure to follow up on it.

My first question is going to be to Mr. Carroll. What are your thoughts on limiting or abolishing peremptory challenges during jury selection? Do you have any?

[Lowell Carroll]

Challenges such as....?

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

I mean challenges during jury selection, when certain members of the jury can be removed. It's been in the news because of what just happened.

I'm wondering whether you've encountered this. Do you think it would be a good thing to get rid of these? Do you have any thoughts on the matter?

[Lowell Carroll]

Honestly, I have a personal opinion concerning jury selection, but it's not a professional opinion. I wouldn't feel comfortable answering that.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Ms. Shackelly, do you have any comments on this point?

[Darlene Shackelly]

Because of what happened last week, I think the issue itself is still pretty raw. I too would not want to comment on it.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

I'm going to turn to Audra. It's nice to see you again, Audra.

When I was out in Edmonton, one thing I heard quite a bit was that the cuts made to corrections by the previous government have made it really difficult for your parole officers and program officers to do their job and that you're being inundated with paperwork, as distinct from dealing with people and ensuring their success.

Could you comment on that?

Let me say that you do an amazing job. I don't mean this in any way to imply that you're not doing a great job, in spite of all the work you have, but you are basically having to do a lot more work. You have more paperwork and less people time.

[Audra Andrews]

I agree with that statement. We are consistently being asked to do more with less, and the expectations on staff to deliver despite all of that are still quite high. It leads to more staff stress and burnouts.

Despite that, we still try to do our best by these ladies and males whom we work with. As I said, our stress and burnout increase is a result of this. I don't disagree with your comment at all.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Another thing I heard was that access to work release is one of the best indicators of success when someone is released later.

However, at Pê Sâkâstêw—not when I was with you folks—they were saying that the amount of time between when an employer says they'll hire someone and the offender's paperwork working its way up the chain and back down can be so long that it means that the job is actually lost.

Have you encountered that as well?

[Audra Andrews]

I haven't personally, as I'm working in the community, but I will say that we have more success with our offenders if they have the opportunity to access work releases.

Work releases take time and money. It takes a lot of work to seek out potential employers who are willing to work with our offenders. It can be quite frustrating for the employers at times after we've done this, and they still have to wait. It's frustrating for everybody involved.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

What about supports on release? When indigenous women are released from prison, they need housing and employment. Do you feel that those are lacking in the community, and is there anything we could do to help ensure their success upon release?