Status of Women Committee on Oct. 27th, 2020

[Anju Dhillon, Liberal, Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC]

Good afternoon.

Thank you to all the witnesses for being here and testifying about these very serious and disturbing parts of our society, especially the vulnerable state of victims of trafficking.

My first question is for the Canadian Human Trafficking Hotline, Ms. Drydyk. You spoke at length about how operations had to be shut down due to the pandemic. There was a lack of services for the victims of sex trafficking.

What are your recommendations? How do you think we can prepare better for a future pandemic or another state of emergency? What are the best practices you've found that would be beneficial to other organizations through the experiences of your own organization and to help the victims at the same time? Could you please tell us how we can prepare for a future pandemic or a national state of emergency so that such vulnerable people don't get left behind and become even more vulnerable than they already are.

[Julia Drydyk]

I think one of the challenges we've seen since the pandemic is that the baseline that we were working off relating to access to emergency shelter services was based on individualized needs. When you look at the general state of the social safety net in Canada and these programs specifically for people who are generally oppressed, stigmatized and marginalized, we weren't working from a great space to start with.

Part of what I think people need to consider is the fact that human trafficking services should not be considered in complete isolation from other services associated with homelessness, housing and other supports for women experiencing other forms of intimate partner violence and gender-based violence. We don't always necessarily need to have a human trafficking specific system, but when the overall system is struggling and it's hard to place anyone in those systems, then those who have gone through the traumas and have other kinds of specific needs associated with having a trafficking experience means that it's just that much harder to find a place for them.

One of the trends we're seeing in the requests for services is that, especially because of the trauma when people initially exit human trafficking, being in a highly regulated emergency shelter system does not work for them. The hours of when they're expected to wake up and go to sleep, and then being controlled in terms of what they're eating, when and how.... Also often people will use substances to try to deal with the traumas experienced.

I think, because we've got a general lack of harm reduction, trauma-informed housing and wraparound services in Canada, the addition of a pandemic to that only makes it worse. If we're really going to get at the heart of this, it means that we're going to take a coordinated, evidence-based approach to really mapping out these services across the country and making sure that in every area across Canada we've got the services in place to provide those supports when they are needed.

[Anju Dhillon, Liberal, Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC]

As you know, since the beginning of the pandemic our government has given a lot of funding to women's organizations and women's shelters. We are trying to keep up with the demand. It's a day-by-day thing, based on the day-by-day requests for more services, more funding.

How can our government directly help your organization and organizations like yours with the phenomenal work you are doing to help those who are most vulnerable in our society? What more can we do to help you be a bigger source of support and to help you keep doing your work?

Thank you.

[Julia Drydyk]

Thank you.

I want to recognize all members of the committee, but also all levels of government, including the current governing party, as well as everyone else and their commitment to this issue. I think it's so important that it remain a non-partisan issue. That support is so important and is moving the bar in addressing this issue.

We have a great relationship right now with the federal government. I think part of it is also being willing to look at those jurisdictional boundaries. Specifically in the most updated federal anti-human trafficking plan, they added the element of empowerment. We're seeing the federal government invest directly in social programs, which normally are not under its purview as the federal government. I think that being able to look at where there are gaps and to come together and collaborate and work together to address those gaps in a long-term and sustainable way is fantastic. Similarly, depoliticizing the issue, making sure everyone is on board and that there is ongoing and sustainable funding for these organizations doing this work....

We're still learning a lot about best practices, but we also need people to have enough funding and resources so they can conduct proper evaluations and learn from their successes and not constantly be worrying about the administration of funding or potentially running out of it based on short project timelines.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Now we'll go to Madame Larouche.

Ms. Larouche, the floor is yours for six minutes.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you for your remarks. They shed light on sad situations and on the links between sexual exploitation and the pandemic.

I'm a member of the all-party parliamentary group to end modern slavery and human trafficking. I'd like to point out that a Senate bill will address the issue of sexual exploitation. I imagine that you'll be able to look at it.

There has been a great deal of talk about sex work. However, exploitation and modern slavery are much more than this. There are two schools of thought. Some argue that, no matter what women do, they can decide how they use their bodies. Others say that women will always be victims of sexual exploitation and this industry.

In addition, some say that, in situations where these women decide to pursue the trade of their own free will, they could be entrepreneurs. Others believe that these women are truly victims, regardless of the circumstances.

Human trafficking constitutes sexual exploitation, and there's no longer any talk of consent. How important is prevention when it comes to young people, girls or boys?

We could even broaden the debate to include online pornography. During the pandemic, people turned to the Internet a great deal. There's a link between the increase in online pornography and the Pornhub site, which is headquartered in Montreal. This site has become a hub for this type of activity. We must revisit the whole issue of education in relation to this problem.

Also, how can we align our legislation with international legislation to facilitate arrests?

How can we increase educational efforts to better assist women who are working in this industry?

[Julia Drydyk]

Is this question for me or for the other witnesses?

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

My question could be for you, but other people may want to speak as well.

[Julia Drydyk]

I've done a lot of talking. Do the other witnesses want to speak, or should I go for it?

[Jenny Duffy]

We often talk about sex work and exploitation as the same topic. It's often assumed that sex work, the very act of selling sexual services, is inherently exploitative. It is a long-term moral debate that is false. We are being treated to harmful laws as a result of that moral debate.

Human trafficking is not the only form of exploitation that could take place at work. At your work you could experience exploitation by being overworked and underpaid or by working in unsafe conditions. This is the exploitation that sex workers are facing as a result of their criminalization and being pushed into unsafe spaces.

At Maggie's: The Toronto Sex Workers Action Project, we advocate for the decriminalization of sex work. Decriminalization, just to be clear, is the removal of any and all criminal offences that target sex workers, clients and third parties. We're not asking for the repeal of trafficking laws, but we're asking for a less problematic application of the laws. There's an assumption of abuse and exploitation in sex work, and the conflation of sex work with human trafficking.

There's an overbroad application of anti-trafficking laws. In particular, they target migrant sex workers. There's aggressive law enforcement profiling and surveillance, which pushes sex workers into further isolation, where they're even afraid to access key services like health services.

We will always advocate for decriminalization of sex work. We would love to see the day when we can talk about sex work like any other respected profession, like agriculture—where even trafficking takes place. We can have a conversation about agriculture without a conversation about human trafficking and the choices that individuals are making. I would love to see that conversation take place.

[Julia Drydyk]

I'll just jump in quickly, if that's okay.

Again, we're very clear. We're the Canadian Centre to End Human Trafficking. We're focusing on this issue. We intentionally don't look at the broader moral question of what is inherently exploitative. I think it really distracts us from focusing on where gross exploitation is taking place right now. We need to be practical about it.

Again, we're aligned with the Canadian Criminal Code, in part because we want to align our statistics with Stats Canada, and also because there are points, as well, where people choose to ask to be referred to law enforcement, and it helps in being able to refer that case.

We define human trafficking as the recruitment, transportation, transferring, receiving, holding, concealing or harbouring of a person, or exercising control or direction over their movements to exploit them or assist in facilitating their exploitation. We really—

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

I'm sorry, I'm going to have to move on. We're going to Ms. Mathyssen for six minutes, thanks.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Again, thank you to all the witnesses.

We've heard really interesting, compelling testimony today. I'm really grateful for it, in addition to a clear understanding and a clear explanation of the differences between the choices that women have or don't have.

I would like to hear a bit more about that push for decriminalization and what steps we can take. You've talked briefly about how that's impacted women and those who choose to define themselves as women, but with regard to a future path, I'm looking for your vision of where the government needs to go. Obviously, decriminalization is one of them, but maybe there are some supports the government could put in place, but which you haven't necessarily seen. I think about what a universal basic income might mean, or certainly, in terms of decriminalization, what larger social supports would do to help the industry.

[Jenny Duffy]

I wanted to double-check if this question was for me and Julie.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

All of the witnesses are certainly welcome to add their thoughts on this, for sure.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Go for it.

[Jenny Duffy]

Certainly decriminalization is the first step, but it's still not sufficient, as it won't prevent all communities of sex workers from being profiled and over-policed. It would be a first step in reducing the stigmatization and the isolation of sex workers.

We would also like to see greater funding for community, peer-led organizations that are on the ground supporting their communities and that can relate, understand and offer appropriate referrals and services. These organizations are massively underfunded, even though they are doing incredible work.

I think more recognition from the government of how important this is through funding is really vital. I can't emphasize enough the need for decriminalization. The government has committed to do a review of Bill C-36, and there's yet to even be a committee to review it. We've been waiting, all the while submitting evidence of how harmful these laws are.

It's a little bit frustrating. We're continuing to say the same thing over and over again because it hasn't happened yet, and there hasn't been the political will for it. I think that's very sad.

We're here today talking about the impact of COVID on women, and sex workers who are afraid to file their taxes. It's such a simple thing that every other worker can do. So many sex workers have missed out on the emergency funding because they're afraid to submit their name and their profession to the government. That's so unacceptable, and decriminalization would be a massive shift to help prevent that from happening.

[Julie Bauman]

We'll connect this in the brief that we're sending. The Canadian Alliance for Sex Work Law Reform does have a comprehensive guide of next steps for people who do sex work. It's all there, and like Jenny said, it's something we're constantly going through and describing over and over again. We do have this promise from the government to review the bill, and there's been no committee. We're doing all of this labour consistently for nothing.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

That additional report to the committee is very welcome, of course.

Ms. Duffy, you mentioned the review of Bill C-36, which was supposed to happen in December 2019. Unfortunately, the government isn't moving as it's supposed to on that.

It's my understanding that the justice committee is really quite overwhelmed by a lot of legislation going through. One of the suggestions we had was to create a special committee to look specifically at the review of Bill C-36 and to insist that sex workers be participant ex-officio members of that committee. I was wondering how that would help going forward.

[Jenny Duffy]

I think that's essential. Sex workers need to be in control of their own lives. They need to have input on laws that affect their work. Yes, just as a basic principle, sex workers should absolutely be involved in that committee.

I also recall that in the Bedford case, sex workers were involved and were consulted and submitted reports then, and we still ended up with these bad laws.

It's not enough to have sex workers at the table and to be able to check a box and say that we consulted sex workers. They need to be listened to. It's not even just sex workers saying this; it's legal and social work professionals who are saying this as well. They have evidence as well that these laws need to be repealed.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Very good.

Alright, we are going into our second round. We're going to start with Ms. Sahota and Ms. Shin, who are splitting their time.

Go ahead, Ms. Sahota.

[Jag Sahota, Conservative, Calgary Skyview, AB]

My question is for Julia.

Are you familiar with the 2014 report of the National Task Force on Sex Trafficking of Women and Girls in Canada?

[Julia Drydyk]

I am, yes.

[Jag Sahota, Conservative, Calgary Skyview, AB]

The task force urged governments to invest in jobs, training, affordable housing, counselling and other supports.

Are there any specific ideas that the centre has for how the government could help prostituted women and girls exit or escape sex trafficking through these types of initiatives?

[Julia Drydyk]

Absolutely.

I think part of it is that there are general trends, but there is no one set of programs or sponsored services that are going to support trafficking survivors in that space. It's really dependent on their experiences and also the level of trauma and the length of their trafficking experience.

In moving forward, when we look at job readiness but also retraining programs, models that include comprehensive wraparound support systems, which include everything from basic needs and shelter to counselling, case management and referral, generally show better outcomes for those individuals as they start transitioning out of sex work or their trafficking experience.

I will say that those programs and services focus on individuals who are independent, and consensual sex workers aren't our wheelhouse.

Again, we work specifically with individuals who have been coerced and forced and exploited into sex trafficking, and again, their needs and services are very different. The trauma is often quite intense. There needs to be a full suite of wraparound supports to continuously meet with them along that journey.

Just because someone has experienced a lot of trauma doesn't also mean that their lives are over. It just means that we need to be focusing on equipping them with other tools to be able to survive through their trauma.