Status of Women Committee on April 15th, 2021

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Okay.

Certainly, Ms. Bourgon, if you could expand....

I think the key here is that they shouldn't necessarily be entirely removed from leadership. There are other ways that they could continue to serve, continue to provide that leadership, and be encouraged along those leadership paths.

[MGen Jennie Carignan]

Absolutely. There are many options to be explored. There are various solutions to each case. There's no one-size-fits-all solution, that's for sure.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Okay.

One of the other things that we've heard now—I'll just switch gears a little bit.... We heard in that 2019 testimony that there is a different definition of sexual assault within the Canadian Armed Forces than there is within the Criminal Code of Canada. To your knowledge, has that changed? Does that still exist? Do you see this as a problem?

[RAdm Rebecca Patterson]

Madam Chair, the definition of sexual assault is the same as in the Criminal Code because it is a Criminal Code case. I can comment on that. Does that answer your question?

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Yes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Very good. That's your time.

Now we're going to Ms. Wong in the second round for five minutes.

[Alice Wong, Conservative, Richmond Centre, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Also, congratulations to our three witnesses. We are so proud of your achievements in the military.

My questions relate to Rear Admiral Patterson.

In your opening remarks, you mentioned that you are the commander of the Canadian Forces health services and that your secondary duty is as the defence champion for women. You also listed some of the responsibilities to be more detailed. As the defence champion for women, who do you report to?

[RAdm Rebecca Patterson]

As defence champion, there are two functional leads that I work with. One of them is ADM(HR-Civ) Mr. Kin Choi—to look after the women of the department—and the other is the chief of military personnel command for the military aspects. However, one of the roles of the champion is to be able to basically transcend the chain of command. If there is an issue that is brought forward, as champion, I can talk to people from the tactical level right up to the chief of the defence staff or the deputy minister, if required. I have certainly used that privilege in order to support the needs of women.

[Alice Wong, Conservative, Richmond Centre, BC]

Being the defence champion is only a part-time job. Do you think that that's not enough, that maybe it should be made into a full-time job so that you can function in that capacity more fully?

[RAdm Rebecca Patterson]

It is a very rich and meaningful secondary duty. I have to admit that it's something that I'm obviously quite passionate about, regardless of my gender. I think that, especially as we move forward, making sure that we have the proper mechanisms in place to ensure that there is a champion for women's voice that is available easily and readily is going to be quite important, so we certainly welcome any recommendations that the committee has.

[Alice Wong, Conservative, Richmond Centre, BC]

Now I have a couple of questions for all of you.

Should there be an independent, investigative review authority with regard to our topic of discussion right now, namely, misconduct?

[RAdm Rebecca Patterson]

I can certainly start and share the conversation with my colleagues. I think, as we move forward, we need to remain open to anything and any structures and external advice and support that make sense to help us move forward in terms of change. The men and the women of the CAF believe this. When we talk about thinking about things in a way that we've never thought about them before, we need to be open and ready to look at anything that will help us move forward.

Respectfully, may I pass that to General Bourgon?

Would you like to comment on that?

[BGen Lise Bourgon]

I think, as you said, we need to listen to the experts because we're going to need help—external authority or the experts from the civilian side coming to help us to change our culture. You know, one way or another, we are all listening. We're looking for options, and we are welcoming the committee's recommendation.

[Alice Wong, Conservative, Richmond Centre, BC]

Thank you.

I would like to ask a second question to all of you.

We heard from a woman who conducted training at the Royal Military College, who was met with ridicule and whose message was discounted.

In your opinion, is the current training meeting the objectives? If not, what should be changed?

I used to be an educator. That's why I'm interested in this question.

[MGen Jennie Carignan]

To me, we always go back to the culture. We have a lot of great guidelines and policies in terms of training. However, there is a gap between what we say and what we do. We will definitely need to have a look at changing our culture in terms of how we do things. We should have a look at our manners and how they line up with the values we actually all support.

Culture can be changed through daily actions. We'll need to look at how we recruit, how we train, how we conduct physical fitness training, and how we promote and select, and what it is that we reward, so we will have to review our manners or how we do these things in our daily activities.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Very good.

We'll go to Ms. Hutchings, for five minutes.

[Gudie Hutchings, Liberal, Long Range Mountains, NL]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I too echo the sentiments of my colleagues. It's such an honour to be with you ladies. You are true champions, and it's obvious that you've broken many glass ceilings to get to where you are, and I know you're going to break many more as you work on the challenges.

I have a question for each of you witnesses. Could you discuss the relationship between the Canadian Armed Forces and the military family resource centres? How would increased investments in the MFRC support the atmosphere and overall well-being of CAF members? How would an increase in access to child care impact CAF members and their families?

Ill start with you, Rear Admiral.

[RAdm Rebecca Patterson]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

The relationship with the Canadian Armed Forces and the MFRCs is a collaborative one, but I think I need to go back to families. The Canadian Armed Forces is not just a group of individuals who serve; we are nothing without our families. If you care for the families, you care for the service member. There are many pressures that come with being a service member. I am part of a married service couple. I have two children, and one of the biggest challenges for me was frequently moving or unexpectedly being deployed. If I did not have the military family resource centres there to help support me, particularly in terms of child care, I actually, I have to tell you, don't know how I would have coped.

Therefore, child care, when I talk with the women of the CAF, is a very critical issue. It benefits mothers and fathers and non-binary parents. It benefits everybody. One thing we do find is a challenge is that every time you move, you're bopped to the bottom of a child care list. One of the priorities we hear about very often is getting access to universal, accessible, quality child care that is available for more than just nine to five and actually meets the hours of service members.

I can tell you that where we need to go with culture change and how we look after our families are as much parts of our culture as is dealing with things that are internal to our force structure.

[Gudie Hutchings, Liberal, Long Range Mountains, NL]

Thank you for that.

Major-General Carignan, would you like to add anything to that?

[MGen Jennie Carignan]

Madam Chair, Rear Admiral Patterson says it all. With my four children, it has been an uphill battle every time we have moved. Our service members all need child care in order to be able to do their jobs properly.

[Gudie Hutchings, Liberal, Long Range Mountains, NL]

Thank you.

I'll now turn to you, Brigadier-General Bourgon.

[BGen Lise Bourgon]

Thank you very much, Madam Chairman.

As part of my studies on inclusion, one of the big things I've realized is that women and men are different and we have to look at those differences. We need to ensure there are programs to fill those gaps. We've seen that the traditional role of women is still there—taking care of the children, their parents, and the home. We have to ensure, for women but also for men, that family is supported.

I'll just reinforce the message that Rear Admiral Patterson was giving. Fifty-seven per cent of our military families don't have access to day care through our military family resource centre because there's not enough capacity. As well, 30% of the people—the women, anyway—who are releasing from the military indicate that child care is one of the considerable reasons for leaving. It's really, really important to focus on that. That is how we're going to value our women serving in the forces and how we're going to keep them serving. As I said earlier, the retention is super important. That family piece is critical.

[Gudie Hutchings, Liberal, Long Range Mountains, NL]

Thank you for that.

We all know that Seamless Canada is one of DND's initiatives to help address the challenges of families being posted in various positions and moving from province to province.

Which one of you would like to comment on that initiative?

Would you like to, Rear-Admiral?

[RAdm Rebecca Patterson]

I have an arm's-length understanding, but Seamless Canada is an absolutely essential service, and not only to connect, as our military families move around the country, to try to smooth out access to health care. Child care is part of it too, but, again, that's a provincially run issue. It also benefits our veterans. It's making sure that for them, along with the families who are moving, service remains seamless.

When you're looking at what service truly means to women and men, it basically means cradle to grave—from the moment of enrolment until you may no longer be on this earth—and making sure that projects like Seamless Canada remain supported and empowered. I think the work it is doing right now is really important, and we should continue to expand toward VAC within the provinces and territories to help make transitions for families easier. I think that's quite important. It's a very positive project.

[Gudie Hutchings, Liberal, Long Range Mountains, NL]

Thank you for your service.