Status of Women Committee on April 15th, 2021

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Ms. Larouche, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I'd like to continue to ask questions of the witnesses. This time my question is for Ms. Bourgon.

Ms. Bourgon, in your opening remarks you mentioned that the many barriers women may face in the Canadian Armed Forces could compromise operational effectiveness. That's what caught my attention, and I'd like to hear a little more about that.

In addition, I would like you to talk to me about structural inequalities and what could be done to promote minority rights.

Those are two topics I picked up from your testimony, so I'd like you to tell me a little bit more about them.

[BGen Lise Bourgon]

Thank you.

As I said earlier, my study is specifically about the inclusion of women and how we could value women, minorities, and LGBTQ+ groups more, because, all in all, we are different. And that difference is a strength. We really need to ensure the continuity of diversity.

As I said, where cultural and structural barriers are concerned, there is not just one simple solution. We need to revisit the organization as a whole, and administrative policies. We need to review the way we evaluate and promote our staff. There is still a bias against women. We need to take a closer look at how we define a leader, success and how we reward people.

It's also worth looking at inclusive leadership to see what the qualities of an inclusive leader are, because that's really important.

On the equipment and infrastructure side, we still have uniforms that aren't female-friendly. Our protective gear is really designed for a man's body, so it doesn't fit a woman's body. This obviously leads to women being less effective in operations. They find themselves in more danger, because they are not properly protected.

We also need to look at training and education, how we provide our training on our values and ethos.

It's important to look at cultural intelligence and gender intelligence. We need to recognize the differences between women and men, because we don't respond in the same way. But this difference does not mean that women are weak. For example, when a woman sheds tears, it does not mean that she is not able to cope with the situation. It's just the way she expresses herself. So it's important that everyone understand the differences between the sexes to ensure greater respect.

Finally, it's all these little aspects of organizational culture that we really need to change to get to the point of being more inclusive.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Very good.

Now we're going to Ms. Mathyssen for a two and a half minutes.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I truly appreciate hearing about the need for accessible and affordable universal child care. It's certainly something this committee has heard a lot. I would like you to expand on that. We're also doing a study on the responsibilities of women for unpaid care work, so if you could, expand on the need for child care. Of course, there are stresses on women regarding elder care and family care as well, for those needing more.

Are there supports in place for that? What would you put forward as a recommendation for the unpaid care roles taken on by women, both generally and through the armed forces, especially when, as you talked about, they have to travel all the time or be away from their homes?

[BGen Lise Bourgon]

Madam Chair, I will take this.

It's very interesting to see the traditional role that women are still.... Certainly, my research showed that men have one more hour every day of free time. Women are busier with children, parents, groceries and everything else. Our women soldiers are a lot busier than their counterparts. We have to take that into consideration.

In the military we are posted all over the world, all over Canada, away from our family. I'm super close to my mom, but I was never close in terms of physical space. I was in Halifax and she was in Ottawa. So when you have an emergency.... Day care is really a source of stress. You have up to a year of wait time for access to day care under the age of five. It's very difficult when you move. When you're very far from family, you don't have access to family, and you need to find day care. The operational world starts. You get posted and you deploy right away.

That access to day care is super important, as is access to shift care. The military doesn't work from nine to five. We work 24-7. We need access to shift and emergency care. I remember flying a Sea King and landing in a parking lot. My husband was at sea. The day care closed at six. I was not there to go and pick up my children. Who's going to do that?

It's important to have those mechanisms in place so that we provide support for men and women—mostly women, again, because of the traditional values. If we want to keep our personnel, that's what we have to provide.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Very good.

I want to thank our witnesses and to say again how proud and thankful we are for your service. I apologize as well for the delays from the voting that we had.

Committee members, are you all okay to stay until about 1:30 p.m. so that we can have a fulsome panel for the second one?

I'm seeing some nodding. Okay.

We'll go right to our second panel. I want to welcome our witnesses from the Department of National Defence. Brigadier-General Atherton is the director general of professional military conduct. Dr. Denise Preston is the executive director of the sexual misconduct response centre.

You will each have five minutes for your remarks.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

On a point of order, Madam Chair.

There is no interpretation.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Clerk, can you check on the translation?

Can you hear the translation now?

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Yes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Excellent.

We'll begin with Brigadier-General Atherton.

[Brigadier-General Andrew Atherton, Director General of Professional Military Conduct , Department of National Defence]

Good afternoon, Madam Chair.

Thank you very much for the opportunity to discuss the work that the Canadian Armed Forces has undertaken to prevent and address sexual misconduct over the past six years.

As introduced, I am Brigadier-General Andrew Atherton, the director general of professional military conduct.

My organization leads the strategic level planning and coordination for the CAF's efforts to address sexual misconduct. Our primary focus has been to develop the foundational policies, procedures and programs needed to support Operation Honour and the CAF's wider efforts to promote institutional culture change.

As we heard from Lieutenant-General Eyre on March 24, Operation Honour has culminated and it's time to transition to a new approach. We are developing a way forward plan that will focus on culture change. As part of that work, we'll take stock of Operation Honour and we'll see what has worked, and more importantly, what hasn't worked. We all know that there is still a lot more progress to be made. We also know that despite our best intentions, we haven't always got things right. That said, there is no question that the work accomplished through Operation Honour will provide a solid foundation for any effort as we move forward.

Since 2015, the CAF has made steady progress in implementing a range of programs, policies and practices needed for addressing sexual misconduct and, most importantly, providing the support for those who have been affected by it. The recommendations that were made by Madame Deschamps in 2015, following her external review, have been our touchstone throughout, and we have taken steps to address all 10 of the recommendations.

In addition, we have responded to the recommendations from parliamentary committees, the Auditor General and from external advisers. We have also actively engaged with experts from the sexual misconduct response centre to ensure that our approaches were informed and appropriate.

We also know that we must move beyond a reactive approach focused on incident response if we are to achieve enduring culture change. We need to target the elements of our institutional culture that are enabling sexual misconduct within our ranks. We need to engage all of our members, because we know that their support and their contribution will be key to our long-term success.

Culture change must be a collaborative effort, and we all have a role to play. That is why we developed, in the fall, a comprehensive, long-term culture change strategy for preventing and addressing sexual misconduct, “The Path to Dignity and Respect”, or simply known and referred to as “the Path”. It is informed by and is sensitive to the experiences of those who have been affected by sexual misconduct in the CAF. It also draws on research, evidence and recommendations from subject matter experts and other stakeholders.

While the Path is by no means the final word on culture change in the CAF, it's a significant step in the right direction. We know that we have significant work to do to advance these efforts, but also to remedy past wrongs and to restore trust. We will listen, we will learn, and we will act.

At this time, Madam Chair, I'd be very happy to answer any questions that you may have.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Thank you so much.

Now we'll have Dr. Preston for five minutes.

Go ahead.

[Dr. Denise Preston, Executive Director, Sexual Misconduct Response Centre, Department of National Defence]

Good afternoon, Madam Chair and members of the committee.

Thank you for the invitation to speak with you today.

My name is Dr. Denise Preston, and I'm a forensic and clinical psychologist with over 30 years of experience dealing with harmful and criminal behaviour. I've been the executive director of the sexual misconduct response centre, or SMRC, since May 2017. I work with a team of dedicated professionals with a range of expertise in a variety of fields, including counselling, trauma, policy, prevention, perpetrators and research.

SMRC's mandate consists of three broad pillars: to provide support services to Canadian Armed Forces members who are affected by sexual misconduct; to provide expert advice on all aspects of sexual misconduct in the CAF, including policy, prevention, reporting and research; and to monitor the CAF's progress in addressing sexual misconduct. All of our counsellors who provide support are civilians who do not have the duty to report. The SMRC is committed to providing confidential and comprehensive support to any CAF member who reaches out and to ensuring that members feel safe, supported and heard.

Over and above our mandate, we are pleased to be leading the development of our restorative engagement program as part of the final settlement agreement related to sexual misconduct, as well as the development of a national survivor support strategy. Both of these initiatives are innovative, have the potential to be transformative and are informed by external subject matter experts as well as survivors.

As many of you know from my past experiences, I report directly to the deputy minister of national defence. As such, I'm independent of the chain of command and do not speak on behalf of the Canadian Armed Forces. However, my team and I do work closely with the CAF to ensure that we meet the needs of CAF members and the organization.

The SMRC has evolved significantly in the five years since its inception. Demand for our services and expertise has increased over these five years, and we have helped to shape various CAF policies and programs to respond to sexual misconduct.

Despite the work that has been done, there is undeniably more to do. We need to continue to foster meaningful culture change to address the sexualized culture. We need to enhance prevention programs to better target higher risk groups. We need to simplify reporting and make it safe for those who come forward. We need to promote processes and recourse mechanisms that are trauma informed and survivor centric. We also need to increase access to specialized care and support services. Of utmost importance is that we need to ensure that all of these efforts are informed by survivors.

Thank you again for the opportunity to be here.

I look forward to your questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Very good.

Thank you as well.

We will begin our first round of questions with Ms. Sahota for six minutes.

[Jag Sahota, Conservative, Calgary Skyview, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for appearing here today and for your testimony.

General, you are the director general of professional military conduct, a recent new structure.

This past Tuesday we had the provost marshal appear before the committee. He informed us that he reports to the vice-chief of the defence staff, who in turn reports to the chief of the defence staff. He also insisted that his office and those under his command are independent.

However, there have been reports in the media of investigation by the CFNIS having been “interfered” with by senior officers. We understand that on paper the provost marshals are able to say they are independent. Given that they are ranked officers in the military and that there are media reports of interference with investigations, what would you recommend so that you not only can say they are independent, and also that they appear to the members of the military and Canadians as actually independent too?

[BGen Andrew Atherton]

As you could well imagine, the provost marshal is probably best suited to answer that question.

The provost marshals exist independently from the chain of command. They adhere to Canadian police standards. They carry themselves and adhere to a strong standard that allows them to operate independently.

[Jag Sahota, Conservative, Calgary Skyview, AB]

General, you touched on this a bit. In your opinion, what would you hope to achieve in this role?

[BGen Andrew Atherton]

In my role?

[Jag Sahota, Conservative, Calgary Skyview, AB]

Yes.

[BGen Andrew Atherton]

My role, as I indicated, is to reinforce the work that has been done by a lot of people who have got us to this point.

We can't lose sight of the fact that a lot of work and a lot of academic, personal and emotional investment have gone into developing Operation Honour to get it to this state we're at now. The release of the Path through the fall is a culmination of that effort. We need to carry on and continue to reinforce the great work that has resulted from that. It is very much focused on identifying those aspects of our culture that we need to reinforce, as well as identifying those things that have a toxic effect that we need to eliminate.

[Jag Sahota, Conservative, Calgary Skyview, AB]

What measures will you take to ensure that the men and women in uniform are behaving in accordance with the code of service discipline?

[BGen Andrew Atherton]

Everybody within the armed forces has a role to play in this. It doesn't matter whether you're at the strategic level or at the tactical level.

It's important that there's a requirement for adherence to the code of service discipline. The measures that we will take will be to continue to ensure that the chain of command is actively engaged in the process, and that leaders at every level understand where they fit and understand the role they play on unit culture and on culture change.

[Jag Sahota, Conservative, Calgary Skyview, AB]

In your opinion, does the code of service discipline reflect a clear and concise definition of paternalism, abuse of authority and sexual misconduct?

[BGen Andrew Atherton]

Every number of years, the code of service discipline and the National Defence Act go through an independent review. That independent review is going on right now, and those sorts of things that have been brought up, Madam Chair, can form part of that analysis as we're going through it.

As we look at how we move forward with Operation Honour, some of those things that were identified that may in fact be barriers to reporting and that may in fact have been some of the negative aspects of where we thought we are will certainly be part of that process.