Status of Women Committee on May 11th, 2021

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Larouche, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I thank both witnesses, Ms. West for her testimony, which unfortunately put into words a very real situation experienced by victims in the Canadian Armed Forces, and Ms. Carignan, the new chief of professional conduct and culture.

Congratulations on your new title, Ms. Carignan. You have risen through the ranks in the military and it is to your credit.

I would like to hear more about your new role first, because it is indeed a new role.

You've talked about revisiting training in your current mandate. You just talked about reviewing the complaint process and working more closely with Ms. Arbour.

I'd like you to talk more specifically about the flexibility you have in your new role to be able to work on sexual misconduct cases in the military.

[LGen Jennie Carignan]

Thank you for your question.

The leeway we will have will be confirmed and determined in detail over the next two months. We just made the announcement. So we need to get organized and make sure we are clear on our mandate.

I intend to have the mandate approved by the end of May and then develop a proposal that will specify the structure and powers that will accompany it. All of this is linked. We need a mandate to build the structure that will support it with the necessary authorities.

The important thing is that these powers currently exist for a variety of positions in the Canadian Armed Forces and departments, so it is important that we do our work well to identify and develop them over the next few weeks.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

While waiting to clarify your role and determine the scope of your work, what can you do in the shorter term?

You talked about rigorously following Ms. Arbour's recommendations, but we are all familiar with the recommendations made in 2015, in the Deschamps Report.

Will you be able to look at those recommendations or build on what has already been done in the Deschamps report to put measures in place as quickly as possible?

What can you do in the interim to clarify your role and work with Ms. Arbour?

[LGen Jennie Carignan]

Indeed, it doesn't stop us from taking action and taking steps on changes that we know we need to take.

The priority is to review the mechanisms and structure for handling complaints, which is, in my opinion, the priority and the one referred to in the survivors' testimonies. That is why we are tackling it first. I have the leeway to do this study and propose solutions.

In the immediate future, we are working to develop clear instructions and expectations about what an inclusive leader is. We want to influence behaviours so that our teams are able to get the tools they need to lead inclusive teams.

Those are the two very short-term priorities that we are going to focus on.

I would like to make it clear that we are not only working on the structure and everything we need to do our job well, but also that we are currently in a position to act on some initiatives.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

I see.

You also mentioned, Ms. Carignan, as did Ms. West, the issue of the independent body [Technical difficulty—Editor] of taking these investigations out of the military, having an outside body to do them.

Ms. West, you said you would like to go back to your three recommendations. I am using my time to give you a chance now to talk more about that and to outline those recommendations that you made in your opening remarks.

[Dr. Leah West]

Thank you very much.

I'll speak first to the idea of training leaders. We've heard already from General Carignan how we start by training recruits how to behave.

RMC is a breeding ground, unfortunately, I would say, based on my experiences, of the toxic culture that permeates the forces. It is where the majority of our officers are indoctrinated into the military. When officer cadets move into a training environment with other officers, they are the dominant group. They are the alphas in a training environment and force others to look to their behaviour to conform.

However, the problem at RMC is that training is done mostly by senior officer cadets. Those cadets have very little experience in the actual military. Their understanding of military leaders is often from basic training and the training they get from other cadets and from movies and television. In other words, it's fantasy and is based on stereotypes.

I really believe that the officer-to-NCM ratio at RMC needs to increase, and that those serving members need to be far more involved in the development of officer cadets at RMC. They can't simply file paperwork and do drill clinics on Wednesday mornings. The people chosen to do the mentorship and leadership training of officer cadets need to reflect the diversity and qualities that the CAF wants. They need to have a record of leadership development and represent diversity, not only in terms of ethnicity and gender but also in leadership styles, and they need to be far more present in the lives of officer cadets.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Very good.

Now we'll go to Ms. Mathyssen for six minutes.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses.

I want to expand on what Madam Larouche was speaking about.

I know these are early days, Lieutenant-General Carignan, but you've been given this huge role. Have you been given any idea in terms of what resources you will be provided, and whether they will be unlimited? Are you aware yet of what supports you'll have from the federal government?

[LGen Jennie Carignan]

Madam Chair, it's a very important question, because we will need to be resourced to do our work properly.

I can assure you that I have received a lot of support from my colleagues and from the DM and the CDS, and we are determined to push this change forward.

As we speak, I am taking people away from various other organizations so they can start this very important work that we need to do. Everybody is fully on board and setting their own priorities aside so that this can be moved forward. There is incredible support from across DND and the CAF to push our change agenda forward.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Again, it's early days, but in terms of the composition of your team, do you have specific examples of the types of professionals and the exact roles that they'll play? Have those been narrowed down yet, or do you have a vision of what that will look like? Will there be different groups working on different things all at the same time? Can you give us an idea?

[LGen Jennie Carignan]

Certainly. This is all linked to confirming the mandate, but the way I see it, some of the various groups that perform duties across DND, for example, on human rights and ethics, do all belong to different organizations within DND.

The integrated centres of complaints and plans and policies, which now rest with different organizations, are being integrated into one centre of plans and policies on professional conduct. This will lead to our building an organization using the many tools that are already available across the board to perform our duties. It's going to be clearer as I get the authorization and the approval to move forward, but I've been socializing a lot of these concepts and ideas right now, and we're moving in a very good way towards being able to put this into place in the next six months.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

We've heard a great deal about the Deschamps report. There were clear recommendations, and Dr. West mentioned them and the independence. However, a lot could be implemented immediately.

Have you had the ability to speak to those in government, within DND, on the immediate implementation of some of the Deschamps report recommendations?

[LGen Jennie Carignan]

We're going to be building on a lot of work that has been done in actioning the 10 recommendations from the Deschamps report, so I'm not going to start from scratch. A lot of initiatives and recommendations have been launched, and we will continue that work. I'll mention recommendation number two, for example, which is to establish a change of culture strategy to address sexual misconduct.

“The Path to Dignity and Respect”, which is the strategy, was published last fall, so I'm going to pursue this strategy now and apply it, and then move it forward for application. We're going to build on the work that has already been done in many of the areas of the 10 recommendations in the Deschamps report.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

In terms of the immediacy, you talked about moving very quickly and talked about moving on the review process of Madam Justice Arbour. We haven't been given a timeline, so how quickly do you think a lot of this will take place?

We certainly heard other witnesses say they already believe that all of the recommendations of the Deschamps report have been implemented, but they have not, according to Justice Deschamps. How soon do you expect or hope to see a lot of these recommendations in place directly, actively?

[LGen Jennie Carignan]

Again, a lot of these recommendations have been actioned and moved forward. However, there is still a lot of work to be done, so I'm going to be moving on it.

Also, we need to put a plan together to phase this work and move it along. Right now, what I need to do is make that plan for DND. We'll need a bit of time to do this, but we will address each one with the time it needs to get done.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Excellent.

Now we'll go to Ms. Alleslev for five minutes.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you very much.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here today.

General Carignan, could you tell me when you were made aware that this position was being created and that you were to fill it?

[LGen Jennie Carignan]

I started to be informed at the end of March that we were thinking of creating this organization, when I was coming back from leave after my Iraq deployment. We had discussions.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

It was at the end of March.

[LGen Jennie Carignan]

Yes, and—

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you.

Do you have a job description and performance metrics? If so, could you table those for us?

[LGen Jennie Carignan]

No, this is not done yet. This is what I want to get approval for at the end of the month so that we can confirm the mandate and then move into the structure that will support this mandate.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

That's perfect. Would you be able to table that with this committee when you have it finalized?

[LGen Jennie Carignan]

Yes, of course. No problem.