Status of Women Committee on May 11th, 2021

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Absolutely.

Members, if we do proceed again, let's not have another interruption, please. This is a very sensitive subject, and it is very difficult for the witness.

Dr. West, do you feel that you can continue?

[Dr. Leah West]

Yes, I'm fine. Thank you for your concern.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Very good. Go ahead.

[Dr. Leah West]

I told him not to do anything, because I couldn't remember the precise details of the assault. I said that I would modify my behaviour and who I could trust, as though I had been raped by a superior officer in my unit. He accepted my answer and we never spoke of it again.

Four years later, while deployed in Afghanistan, I was investigated without my knowledge by military police and my chain of command for having a consensual sexual relationship with a U.S. officer who was not in my unit but of the same rank. The relationship was discovered when a male officer on my team accessed my email without my permission, found a deleted flirtatious email between me and the American and took it to my superior. They didn't need to investigate me. The day I found out what was going on, I admitted to my boss what I had done.

My relationship violated regulations against fraternization in theatre. I was charged and pleaded guilty, and I was fined, repatriated from theatre and posted out of my unit. All of this I could accept. I had knowingly violated orders, and my repatriation impacted the operational effectiveness of my unit. However, what I no longer accept is that I was also called demeaning names, told I wasn't worthy of leading soldiers, even threatened with violence by my commanding officer and repeatedly chastised by other senior officers.

For several months I worked alone in an office with four workstations managing a single Excel spreadsheet. The message was clear: My career in the regular forces was over. Eventually, when I was released, the position I had been offered with a reserve unit was revoked. The new commanding officer told me that I wasn't the type of leader he wanted in his unit. My experience is an extreme example of the double standard women in uniform face every day.

My biggest failure in life, actions for which I was pushed out of the armoured corps and for which I continue to carry immense shame, is, however, allegedly precisely the type of leadership displayed by the man who ultimately served as this country's longest-serving chief of the defence staff. Yet, for me as a female army captain, there was no hesitation to act on an email and remove me from my position, and that was the right call. We cannot turn a blind eye when military leaders put themselves and their interests before the mission. This ethical obligation is the foundation upon which any professional military operates: serve Canada before self.

This brings me to my second point. Where does this double standard come from? Why is sexual misconduct so prolific and even condoned in the CAF when the victims are women but not the wrongdoers?

In my opinion, the sexualized environment identified in the Deschamps report is a symptom of two more fundamental issues at the core of the CAF's culture. First, women and men and their contributions to the CAF are not valued and respected equally. Second, the CAF continues to perpetuate deeply flawed and antiquated expectations about who women and men in the armed forces are supposed to be and, correspondingly, how they ought to behave.

How do we fix it? Given the time, I'll simply identify three recommendations. I'm happy to explain them further in my responses to questions.

First, as we all know, we need an independent reporting mechanism. The government, I believe, should make interim policy and legislative changes to expand the mandate of the sexual misconduct response centre to include independent investigations. This can happen concurrently with the review by Justice Arbour.

Second, we must improve leadership training and officer cadet mentorship at the Royal Military College. The RMC is the training ground of our future leaders, but it is also where these outdated and degrading perceptions of men and women in the forces take root.

Finally, I believe the notion of zero tolerance for all forms of misconduct is unrealistic and unhelpful. Culture change in the CAF is a massive undertaking. Good people trying to do better will make mistakes. The cost of making those mistakes cannot be so severe that victims and observers hesitate to speak up and take action.

Thank you very much for your time. I look forward to your questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Thank you so much for your testimony.

We are pleased to have Lieutenant-General Jennie Carignan with us.

Thank you so much for your perseverance with our technical issues today. You'll have five minutes for your opening remarks, and you may begin.

[Lieutenant-General Jennie Carignan, Chief, Professional Conduct and Culture, Department of National Defence]

Good morning, Madam Chair.

Good morning, honourable members.

I am pleased to appear before the committee today with Ms. West.

I am Lieutenant-General Jennie Carignan, recently appointed chief of professional conduct and culture. I am honoured by the trust placed in me by my appointment to this mandate, which, to say the least, will be complex and challenging. While our responsibilities encompass the entire defence team, my comments today will focus on the Canadian Armed Forces.

For this change in culture to succeed, we will need to challenge our basic assumptions and guiding principles in building the professional soldier we need now and in the future.

Before this committee, I spoke last month about our military culture. There are many positive aspects to our culture. It allows women and men to develop the strength and the courage to put themselves into harm's way to defend Canada.

However, some aspects of our culture command change, and we are at an inflection point. There is a gap between our existing culture and our professed culture. Moreover, for a mission-oriented culture such as ours, there is a belief that tasks are to be done at all costs, that people's well-being and operational effectiveness is a zero-sum game. This premise is false. When applied indiscriminately, it contributes to toxicity within our units. Treating people with dignity is not a trade-off for operational effectiveness. In fact, dignity is at the foundation of trust, and we must have trust in one another to succeed in the challenging circumstances we so often face together.

The scope of this new organization's mandate is broad, and we need to make sure we build it on a solid foundation. Our first actions in this new organization will be to formalize the mandate and responsibilities, put the structure in place to carry out that mandate, undertake consultations with respect to professional conduct and culture, conduct a review of complaint processes and structures, and develop recommendations and implement them.

This culture change requires a sustained effort on the part of every CAF member to ensure that our behaviours, attitudes and beliefs are aligned with our values. That is why we are committed to building a CAF that reflects and celebrates the uniqueness and strength of all Canadians.

I feel encouraged and buoyed by the winds of change within National Defence as well as the many expressions of support I have received over the past two weeks from various individuals and groups within and outside Defence. We have a duty to do this properly, once and for all.

Thank you, and I look forward to your questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Thank you very much.

Now we will start with Ms. Sahota for six minutes.

[Jag Sahota, Conservative, Calgary Skyview, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to the witnesses for being here today.

Dr. West, my sincere apologies for the interruption. My question is for you.

In the report entitled “A Force for Change: Creating a Culture of Equality for Women in the Canadian Armed Forces”, tabled in June 2019, the status of women committee recommended that the Government of Canada provide mandatory, comprehensive sexual harassment training for all Canadian Armed Forces members and recruits, with training follow-ups on a regular basis.

What training, if any, is offered within the Canadian Armed Forces on the topic of sexual misconduct, including sexual assault and sexual harassment?

[Dr. Leah West]

Thank you for your question. Unfortunately, I'm not well placed to answer it. I retired from the forces in 2012.

I believe General Carignan would be better placed to answer that question. I can speak only to the training that I received during my time, which is now quite outdated.

[LGen Jennie Carignan]

I can answer this question.

The education on CAF values and ethos starts at the recruit schools. All recruits, both officers and non-commissioned members, receive training on the profession of arms, the Canadian military ethos and diversity. On top of this, they all receive training on preventing sexual misconduct in the workplace. As an example, there's approximately three hours of training and evaluation through both written exam and observation of the recruit's performance during their training. This is kind of the package that is put together at the beginning when recruits join the military.

[Jag Sahota, Conservative, Calgary Skyview, AB]

As a follow-up question to that, how does the Canadian Armed Forces ensure that all members receive training about expected behaviours and the consequences of sexual misconduct?

[LGen Jennie Carignan]

There is mandated training that happens after recruit training is over via the various units throughout the Canadian Armed Forces. What we are observing, however, is that the training is not actually achieving the aim of reducing misconduct in any type of way, so we will have to revisit this training and we will have to focus at the leadership level on providing tools for leaders to set an inclusive climate. This is what we will put the emphasis on.

[Jag Sahota, Conservative, Calgary Skyview, AB]

Once again, to follow up on that, you said that the training that's being provided is not effective. Can you list some of the improvements other than working from the top down, starting from the leaders and going right to the bottom? Can you tell me how that would happen and what steps are being taken?

[LGen Jennie Carignan]

We will review the training. This review is currently going on. We are taking a survey of the various training packages that are delivered currently throughout the Canadian Armed Forces.

What we are noticing is that we have been telling people what not to do. We want to reverse that and put the emphasis on the behaviours that we are looking for. The training is not going to be an Ottawa thing. The training is going to be delivered throughout the Canadian Armed Forces, but also amongst our defence employees as well. We want this to be focused on inclusivity, expectations for fostering an environment in which people feel safe to provide ideas and offer different views and perspectives and establish trust between the team and the leaders themselves. We are getting ready to issue guidance on the expected behaviours from inclusive leaders, and we are going to issue that in the next few weeks as a first initiative to kick-start the culture change momentum.

[Jag Sahota, Conservative, Calgary Skyview, AB]

How long has it been known that the training that has been provided to date has not been working? Were there steps being taken, other than now, to improve the training?

[LGen Jennie Carignan]

Improving the training has always been a part of the lessons learned throughout this process. As we deliver a training package, there's also an assessment on the receptivity and on whether the training actually achieves the objectives we're looking for. This is fed back into the loop so that we modify training as we go. We have certain training packages that have had a lot of success and a lot of impact on the members who have taken the training, and we've adjusted those as we have gone along. It's a normal learning process through which we modify training as we field these various training packages amongst the force.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

That's very good.

[Jag Sahota, Conservative, Calgary Skyview, AB]

Could we get a copy of the guidelines, please?

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Yes.

Now we will go to Ms. Sidhu for six minutes.

[Sonia Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton South, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here.

I believe that our study needs to be focused on the survivor's perspective, so, Dr. West, thank you for your sensitive testimony.

My question is for Dr. West.

What gaps presently exist throughout the reporting process, and what do you think could be done better to close them?

[Dr. Leah West]

Again, I will take it from my perspective. I have been out of the forces since Operation Honour was put into place.

My understanding is that all sexual assault is currently dealt with outside of the chain of command by MPs, so looking back on my circumstances, what happened shouldn't have happened if it had happened three years later. Ultimately, I believe that how everything shook out would still be the same with the current process that's in place.

Had I been first approached by military police and they believed they couldn't pursue criminal charges, my expectation was that with an outside reporting process, my complaint would have been directed that way rather than to my chain of command. Then, in having discussions about how to proceed, the question would have been conducted in a neutral environment where I could have been presented, hopefully, with all of the information to make an informed choice, not have to make that choice and have the person investigating the activity be someone who wrote my personnel evaluations, or who decided if I got a career course or what job I had next.

To have that investigation take place outside of the chain of command is incredibly important. It's also important, I think, for trust in the confidentiality of the process, which I don't think people trust will happen when it's the people you see every day and the army can sometimes be a gossipy place.

I really do think it's necessary to have a neutral and partial independent body who can talk to survivors about their choice and then investigate this, so that when making the decision they don't feel like an investigation is going to impact every element of their current and future career—and also for the accused person's career. The accused person also deserves to have an investigation done, not by their chain of command and to have the full benefit of confidentiality.

Currently, I think the system is quite flat in that regard. I practise criminal law. The system simply cannot continue to be one that is decided by the same people who have extreme control over the future of your life. That's the biggest gap that I see. Currently the process, the sexual misconduct reporting centre, doesn't really change that.

[Sonia Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton South, ON]

Thank you, Dr. West. Your input is very valuable to us.

The next question is for General Carignan.

What is your vision for your new role as the chief of professional conduct and culture?

[LGen Jennie Carignan]

Madam Chair, the approach we want to take with this new organization is, while we are listening and learning, we want to start working on the problem at the same time.

A priority of mine will be to conduct a review of the complaints system.

As Dr. West has been explaining, it is not efficient. It's very complex. We have many, many different tools that are resting in many different places within DND, and what we want to do is integrate and centralize this so that we have visibility and a better complaints system.

We're also going to be working with Madam Arbour very, very closely on this, in reacting as fast as possible to the recommendations she will make along the way, so that we don't wait for many months for a report to come and then start working on the problems.

This is the approach we are going to take with this.

[Sonia Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton South, ON]

To follow up, General Carignan, what are the immediate and long-term steps that you will be taking to ensure meaningful and long-lasting culture change in the Canadian Armed Forces and the Department of National Defence?

[LGen Jennie Carignan]

Long term, we're going to realign our policies and programs that address all kinds of misconduct within DND and the CAF. Again, we want to improve the ways that systemic misconduct is reported. I also want to be in the space of prevention. We want to make sure that we create an environment that reduces the opportunities for this misconduct to happen, which is lacking currently. We also want to give greater agency and support to those who have experienced misconduct, and see it from the eyes of the survivors.