Status of Women Committee on Nov. 17th, 2020

[Sévrine Labelle]

Unfortunately, I have no information for you on this particular point. However, some thought needs to be given to how we can properly support Indigenous working women. They are entrepreneurs, but they are often forgotten by all kinds of government services, including employment insurance.

During the pandemic, they had access to the Canadian Emergency Response Benefit, the CERB. But generally speaking, it's always just a bit too complicated for self-employed women workers. The same is the case for insurance plans, including prescription drug insurance.

There needs to be a more thorough exploration of how we can properly support self-employed women entrepreneurs. The fact is that they often become owners of much larger companies. They begin as self-employed workers and eventually, their business grows.

I am going to conclude by mentioning a statistic: almost 50% of businesses owned by women are sole proprietorships. This means that different services need to be provided to this group, which represents a large percentage of businesses owned by women.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Excellent.

Now we'll go to our second round of questions. Ms. Wong, you have five minutes.

[Alice Wong, Conservative, Richmond Centre, BC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

It's been a very informative morning. I'm in British Columbia, where it's still morning.

My questions come from some businesswomen I talk to, and also from my experiences as a former entrepreneur and also as a trainer for entrepreneurs. I was the founding vice-president of the Women's Enterprise Society of BC, which did financing as well as training—exactly what CFIB has been promoting. These small business owners, especially women, need both the money and the training.

My question is about some of the programs that have been around. I have a friend who runs a boutique in the Richmond Mall. Obviously, because of COVID, she had to close her business for some time, following the rules. When she reopened, she found it so difficult to pay the rent.

At that time she was not allowed to apply for it. Obviously, the owner still does not want to apply for the subsidy because of the 25% reduction in the rent. It was through our party that we fought for them. Finally, now, the rent subsidy can be applied for by these small business owners, including women.

From that perspective, what more do you think needs to be done in order to help these women in small business?

[Corinne Pohlmann]

I'll start.

I think the most important thing on rent subsidy is to get it out. It's still not available. We understand it's still going through the Senate this week. Hopefully, once it gets passed, hopefully this week, it will be quickly launched thereafter.

December 1 is coming. As you mentioned, there are many small business owners, like the woman you're talking about, who had landlords who didn't apply for it, even though they were eligible. We believe it's important for government to consider those businesses. For all those businesses that haven't been able to pay their rents for the last six to eight months and weren't able to get help from their landlord, we believe there should be something retroactive for them to allow them to build.

One of the biggest issues women entrepreneurs are telling us they're worried about is debt. That debt is accumulating, whether it's been deferred or put aside or they've had to find other ways to pay it. We believe there should be something at least provided retroactively to all those business owners who were not able to access the old rent subsidy program but were eligible under those rules that were there then. That's one thing that can be done, for sure.

I also think that the Canada emergency business account loan needs to be simplified for those businesses that are very small, because right now it is very complex. That would be another big one that needs to be looked at very closely.

[Alice Wong, Conservative, Richmond Centre, BC]

Yes, I heard the same challenges when I asked my hairdresser why she's not getting any help. She said that it's too complicated. She said that instead of spending hours filling out that form, she'd better get some more business done. That's exactly what's been happening to women business owners.

Another challenge has been for home-based businesses, which we haven't talked about. Because of COVID, many of these small businesses—especially for women—moved their business home. What kind of support should there be for these home-based businesses, especially for women entrepreneurs?

[Corinne Pohlmann]

One question we have outstanding with the government right now is whether the rent subsidy will apply, at least partially, to home-based businesses. Much in the same way that you can deduct expenses for home-based businesses from your income taxes, is there a way that part of the rent subsidy can help with that?

Because they're home-based businesses, they may be sole proprietors. Access to many of the other subsidy programs is limited. That's where we thought the regional relief and recovery funds might help, but many of them don't offer help to the sole proprietors when they maybe should have.

Those are some areas where there are still gaps in the systems. I believe home-based businesses are one of those gaps we have to think about.

[Alice Wong, Conservative, Richmond Centre, BC]

For women entrepreneurs, there has always been the balance between family and business. What sorts of supports should the government be giving to these women who handle both?

It's a big question.

[Corinne Pohlmann]

It is a big question. It's a tough one to answer in regard to everything.

The biggest worries for women entrepreneurs are debt, business cash flow, stress and the worry that their consumers will not come back. Find ways to start to address those and recognize that the programs that currently exist need to be expanded to include a broader array of business owners.

I do think the government has learned a lot in this process about all the different types of businesses that exist out there and the different formats they come in. If we want to encourage entrepreneurship among women and among younger people, we need to make sure we're recognizing these businesses as legitimate and that we're including them within many of the programs that already exist.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

All right, that's your time.

We're going now to Ms. Zahid for five minutes.

[Salma Zahid, Liberal, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair. Thanks to all the witnesses for a very informative session today.

My question is for both the witnesses, Ms. Labelle and Ms. Pohlmann.

We all know that for Canada and its economy to develop sustainably, more women and under-represented communities must be involved in entrepreneurship and must contribute to their full potential.

I represent a riding that is called home by people from all parts of the world. I see and talk to women entrepreneurs who are from under-represented communities—minority women and new immigrants. We all know that this pandemic has added more responsibility and stress on the shoulders of women. If the kids are not going to school, they have to take care to make sure they are looked after, even if they are doing online classes. In the case of younger kids, they have to be supervised. Many new immigrant families are three-generation families. I see women from South Asian communities in my riding who have their parents also at home. As things have been very difficult for our seniors, it's an added responsibility for the women to look after their parents as well.

Do you have any recommendations on how we can help this group of women entrepreneurs? Is there any data on how this pandemic has adversely affected them? I would like to hear from both of you, if you would give some recommendations as we now try to build back a more resilient Canada where everyone is included. How and what can we do to represent and to help those under-represented women?

I will start with Ms. Pohlmann, if you have any suggestions, and then go to Ms. Labelle.

[Corinne Pohlmann]

I really don't mean to be repetitive, but the scope of this pandemic is big, so I feel that in many ways, to make sure we're getting everybody into the programs that currently exist, we need to look at the programs themselves and make sure they're broad enough and inclusive enough to include the people who may find themselves outside of them right now.

For example, the Canada emergency business account loan—that $40,000 loan that's interest free—has gone to 800,000 businesses already, but I feel that there are too many still falling through the cracks, and many of them are among the folks you just described. Are there ways in which we can make sure that these programs are better adapted to that situation?

Rather than start from scratch and build something new and different, for now it's about getting through this pandemic period and helping people get back on their feet and then helping them adjust to whatever the new economy or whatever it is that we're going to be coming into is going to look like.

To me, that is the better way to go in the short term, and then we can talk about how we can assist folks as we understand what the new reality is going to look like in the coming months, after this pandemic is over.

Let's fix what we have out there, because those programs are there. I think they can be broadened to make sure they include the folks you're talking about in your question.

[Salma Zahid, Liberal, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Ms. Labelle, would you like to add to that answer?

[Sévrine Labelle]

I would like to thank you for having asked that question because the survey conducted by Femmessor showed that women from the diversity and Indigenous women in Quebec experienced the challenges of the pandemic in much the same way.

And generally speaking, women from the various cultural communities face more barriers than Canada's Indigenous women and white women. This means that they have to overcome more financial problems. It is also more difficult for them to obtain mentoring, adequate support and coaching to address their needs.

I was going to say earlier—and you are now giving me an opportunity to say it—that financing programs are absolutely essential, as my colleague has already pointed out. I would add that coaching for women entrepreneurs and women entrepreneurs from the various communities is also essential. It's not enough to just give them a cheque and financial support. They also need to make the right moves, learn how to do things digitally or review how they have been delivering their products and services so that they can adapt to the pandemic. They even need help to reinvent themselves and come up with something for society that has more value and that will survive the passage of time. So I think that one of the best ways—

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

I'm sorry, your speaking time has run out.

We will continue with Ms. Larouche for a few minutes.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Ms. Labelle, I may be able to give you an opportunity to give us further details.

First, like you, I firmly believe that the post-pandemic economic recovery will have to be feminist, fair and green. I was dumbfounded to hear the numbers, but at the same time, I am not surprised because in Quebec we are familiar with the Mothers Step in movement.

How would businesses like these provide a sound opportunity for women who want to become entrepreneurs once the COVID-19 pandemic is behind us, in the context of a more sustainable and green economy?

[Sévrine Labelle]

I will tell you about our experience in the field. At Femmessor, we provide guidance to hundreds if not thousands of women entrepreneurs every year. Surprisingly, what many women entrepreneurs have in common is that they want to contribute to a better world through their business. Most of the women establish their business to create jobs and wealth, but even more so, to contribute to the common good and to make society a better place.

We all know that we're up against a brick wall because of climate change and the pandemic we are currently experiencing. And this is only the beginning of a series of events that could cause economic upheaval. We need to change how we do things right now.

Besides, the women entrepreneurs who completed our survey told us that one of the five major priorities for the recovery should be a review of the global economic model to make it greener and kinder to people and the environment. This shows how close these goals are to women's values. Changes to the model could further promote the creation of businesses and empower some women.

If we boost the economy, it will be easier to leverage women entrepreneurs who create businesses in these sectors. This is not happening at the moment because the focus is much more on technology, innovative manufacturing sectors, major exporters and natural resources. And yet, women have much to contribute in the current economy.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Ms. Labelle, you mentioned coaching.

We have the same challenges because we lack female role models in politics. As for the future, I would imagine that your experience in the field could come up with programs that do more to promote women's entrepreneurship.

If I have understood you correctly, that is mainly what you are recommending. Is that right?

[Sévrine Labelle]

Definitely. Coaching makes all the difference.

As I mentioned earlier, 80% of the businesses that we finance are still active after five years. That's because we coach them and don't give up on them. For a five-year period, we keep an eye on their strengths, their weaknesses, and their business objectives. We then determine who they need to advise them to ensure that they are successful in making their model a reality.

This model is also good for cultural diversity communities experiencing the same challenges, which need this kind of advice and coaching. Thanks to the federal government's financing program, we can now provide guidance to hundreds of women entrepreneurs from the diversity.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

All right.

The last question goes to Ms. Mathyssen.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you.

To go back to the line of questioning I had started before, Ms. Pohlmann, I think you have brought great recommendations forward to this committee for CEBA, the wage subsidy and the rental subsidy. I'm really glad, and of course I hope to see those within our report.

I hear what you're saying. I've certainly heard from my own constituents in London—Fanshawe that many have been left out. For all of these programs, while they're good and we're still figuring a lot of things out, this second wave—and, hopefully, not a third one—will be the test of where we need to go to ensure that we have the greatest coverage.

Certainly New Democrats were pushing from the very beginning for something like CERB to be universal, and that was to ensure that more people weren't left out. Going forward, how do we ensure that these programs are, in fact, universal and that we get the most coverage? Are there other programs you could see filling that need on a larger scale so that no one's left behind?

[Corinne Pohlmann]

One thing I've appreciated throughout the pandemic is that this has been unprecedented for everybody and for governments too. I do want to give some credit to the government for introducing many different programs and for being open to feedback and making changes to those programs as it has learned about the impacts, but I don't think those impacts have stopped. I think we need to continue to make improvements to the programs as we move forward.

We appreciate that there have been lots of changes and adjustments. We also know that some of these are very complicated, but I think there's a reality out there about new businesses in particular. There are a lot of businesses that have actually been started during the pandemic. They were thought about six months before the pandemic, and they had to start, because that was the direction they were going. They get nothing. There is nothing available to them. These are the people we want to boost up so that they can get through the pandemic and then move their businesses into a new world.

I think it's really about continuing to listen to the feedback. I appreciate that the government has done that. I do think that everybody's getting tired, and I've seen that momentum slow down as well. I think that's part of what's happening, but we can't, especially as we move into a second wave and, as you said—God forbid—a third wave.

There's a lot of frustration out there as small businesses watch these large stores like Costco and Walmart stay open because they have groceries, but they are also selling everything they would normally sell, while the small businesses have to close down. I think there's a lot of fundamental unfairness and a lot of burbling underneath that this isn't right.

Everybody wants to protect everyone's health and everybody wants to make sure everybody's safe, but I think there's an unfairness lingering underneath, and governments need to respond to that. The best way to do that is to figure out how to continue to expand the programs so that we're making sure everybody who's affected and hit by this situation is being helped in some form.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

All right. Unfortunately, that's the end of our time for today.

I want to thank our witnesses. You've been tremendous. We could spend all day talking to you. You've been very helpful, so thank you.

Thank you to all the members of the committee for your excellent questions.

With that, this meeting is adjourned.