Status of Women Committee on Nov. 19th, 2020

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I agree with my colleague from the Bloc that you two have come to us with a very different point of view. As a committee, we hear all kinds of views and we respect them. However, it probably comes as no surprise that I don't agree with you.

I find this difficult considering that throughout this study, and certainly when we were hearing from witnesses in the summer, we heard otherwise repeatedly, from all sectors and all different outlooks, whether we were talking to child care experts, stakeholders in the field, the witnesses we heard from earlier today or witnesses from the chamber of commerce. As we heard in the media from the vice-president of the CIBC, child care, and more than that, universal affordable child care, is a necessity. I find it very difficult to juxtapose that with what you're saying today.

In terms of choices, I could agree that saying we haven't put enough funding support into child care to make it universal is true. We certainly need to do a lot more to ensure that when we talk about the choices parents have, they actually have a choice.

Madam Sidhu was talking about those who have to work, such as double-income parents who earn minimum wage, which is certainly not strong enough. They have to work; they don't have choices. Affordable child care actually provides them with more choices. Those with higher incomes, wealth and power, those who have benefited from the privileges that our society provides have choices, but people with lower incomes don't.

In ensuring there are options, we can compare any sort of universal system. We could compare it to the United States' health care system. People there have to make very difficult choices, and their loved ones have to mortgage their house for the health care they need. I know of parents, friends of mine, who have lived on the Quebec side and then on the Ontario side, and it's the difference between eight dollars and $60 a day for child care.

Those aren't real choices in my mind when we talk about a universal program. I can agree with the fact that it's not universal, but taking that away, instead of putting more supports into it, is probably where we need to go.

I would like to ask a question of both of you. There was mention of how children grow. I know that in my community there's an amazing group called Childreach, and it believes in the fact that child development is equally based on what children learn from their peers and what they learn from adults and the importance of that.

We talk about the isolation of parents who can afford smaller groups. They can tutor their children. However, what would you say to the teachers who are finding themselves in difficult positions? In those cases, they wouldn't have the supports they normally would in a protective workspace from a union or from different kinds of provincial laws, like labour laws. How would you address that?

[Kate Tennier]

First of all, I think we all agree that child care needs to become more affordable and that we have to help parents far more.

The most affordable form of child care is what we have right now, Ms. Mathyssen, and what we need is more money. The Canada child benefit is fantastic. Frankly, even though I wrote an op-ed in the Globe that said “Fund the child”, I would have done it differently. I would have given the second child half the amount as opposed to the full, because there's an economy of scale in raising children and you would then.... No, no, no, it's not that the second child is not as important. It is that the money could have been redeployed more broadly.

We need refundable tax credits, but there is not.... Unfortunately, I think the people you heard from in the summer.... What does “an expert” mean? I see that the hand-picked advisers to the Liberal government.... I know the information that they are giving the government, and it is not accurate. It is not full. It's—

[The Clerk]

I apologize. We will have to interrupt. We don't have interpretation.

[Kate Tennier]

Is that because of my mike?

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Yes. I think we're having significant problems. What I would suggest is that the witness submit a brief with the answer that you would like to have to the question.

[Kate Tennier]

Is there any way, though, that at least for the English-speaking people who can hear this, I would really prefer to say it and I can still do a brief after? It's hard for me to remember what I'm saying.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Unfortunately, it's a policy of the committee that we need to have everything in the two languages of our country.

[Kate Tennier]

Okay.

[Andrea Mrozek]

Can I try to jump in?

We're speaking of choices. Child care is the care of a child, no matter who does it. There is a lot of honourable work being done across this country that is completely disrespected by an Ottawa bubble that fails to recognize the beauty and diversity of that care. Choices come when we give low-income parents more money, who can then choose to spend it in the manner they see fit—

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Could I could squeeze in there? Sorry.

If we talk about choices of parents, then, how do you feel about something like a guaranteed livable income that would raise up the choices of those parents to ensure they actually could afford what you're talking about?

[Andrea Mrozek]

With regard to parents and mothers and fathers at home making choices around their child care, I think that even large sums of money to parents for them to be able to make those choices is a more effective policy decision than creating a bureaucratic system where the money doesn't ever reach the majority of children.

If we're going to look at models—for example, we talk a lot about Sweden—I would like to raise the model of Finland, which does fund spaces but also gives a sizable chunk of money to parents, and for a child under the age of three, they can decide which they prefer to use. That's choice as well. It's not saying that we are giving money only to spaces, and you, Parent A, get money for your child care choice because you chose that particular type of care, and you, Parent B, get nothing because you don't prefer that form.

Parental preference is so key on this, and I just fear that we are not getting enough of the polling and stats out there on parental preference. There is a University of Saskatchewan public policy analyst, Rick August, who has written on and coalesced the years of polling data on what parents prefer, and they don't prefer centre-based spaces. That's the type of care we get when we fund federally a universal so-called system. We need to move away from that and offer parents the preferences that they say they choose and they prefer. I'm really strong on that as well.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Unfortunately, we're at the time we have for this panel. We still have a bit of committee business to do.

I want to thank the witnesses. I do apologize for the technical difficulties today. As I've said, if there are things you want to submit to the committee, I encourage you to submit briefs to the clerk.

At this point, the committee business we need to talk about is that on Tuesday we have the minister coming for the main estimates from 11 o'clock to one o'clock. You will remember that it was going to be a three-hour meeting, but unfortunately, due to a COVID exposure, our final witness, representing the front-line police officers, cannot appear as planned.

On behalf of the committee, I want to thank all of our front-line workers for the amazing service that they're providing during these challenging times.

That means we will have only a two-hour meeting, then, on Tuesday. On Thursday, if the committee agrees, we wanted to have a meeting of the subcommittee of FEWO to talk about prioritizing the order of future studies. If there are suggestions in addition to the motions we have, I ask that we get those.

I just wanted to take the will of the committee. Do we want to have the subcommittee on Thursday, or do we want to have the whole committee have that discussion?

[Jag Sahota, Conservative, Calgary Skyview, AB]

I'll go for the subcommittee.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

The subcommittee?

Very good. With that, we will have the subcommittee on Thursday, and the minister with the estimates on Tuesday.

I declare this meeting adjourned.