Status of Women Committee on May 9th, 2024

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Madam Briscoe, I think you also spoke about the long-term impacts of gender-based violence, including coercive control.

I met a woman—I'm going to say this very quickly—who was fleeing violence, had her kids there and was not able to deal with her feelings about that violence because she had to work at a minimum-wage job. She just had to go to work to support her kids. She had no ability to deal with her trauma. She came up to me—actually, I hate these stories because they sound political, but it was true, because it was about a guaranteed livable basic income—and she said, “Thank you: I need that so I can heal.”

Do you think that providing those kinds of financial supports is critical, in addition to things like rent geared to income, if we are going to support individuals so that they will actually be able to leave and then get the healing they might require to move forward in a way that is safer? I don't want to use judgmental terms, but "free from violence"....

[Taylor Briscoe]

Yes. It allows for more resilience, I would say. That's how I characterize it. It allows them to continuously access the services they need without having to compromise on their choices, the tough choices that a mother will always make. She'll always put her children first, so it will be, “I'll feed my children and I won't get the care I need.” We can eliminate those decisions.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you so much.

My next question is for Madam Gill.

We know, for example, that police are often not allowed to drop people off at shelters because there are high rates of violence among police officers and often the shelters want to keep those locations secret. Did your research involve the amount of police that are actually involved in cases where they are the perpetrators of domestic violence?

[Prof. Carmen Gill]

That's an excellent question, but no, I have not studied the issue of police officers that are perpetrators themselves.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

I ask that because what we've seen in other studies—and I'll follow up with you afterwards, Madam Pigeau—is that police are often not in a good position to make those assessments. They need training. I know you mentioned that.

What concerns me more is that they can often be involved in the violence. Instead of having police do it, do you think it would be more helpful to have mental health professionals make the assessments when they know there are cases of domestic violence, and to lead the interventions?

[Prof. Carmen Gill]

Not necessarily, because, for example, in some police agencies, they do have special units. They have special investigators who are going to work with victims, but we really need to be able to remove police officers when we start knowing that they are involved themselves in abusing their spouses. That's clear to me. This is something that police agencies are responsible for doing. Without removing those police officers, we're just jeopardizing the victims.

[The Chair, Conservative, Shelby Kramp-Neuman]

Thank you. At this point, the time is up.

Terrific.

Next, we have Michelle Ferreri.

You have five minutes.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

Thanks, Madam Chair.

Thank you so much to the witnesses for being here today as we continue our study of coercive control.

For my first question, I'll go right to Ms. Ridley or Ms. Briscoe from the Salvation Army. One of the issues we have from a justice system perspective is that we don't actually have a definition, or a legal definition, of coercive control.

Based on your experience and the testimony you've provided today, you've brought up some very valid points. A lot of these survivors and people living in this right now don't actually know that they're in a coercive control relationship. Often, it's generational: That was the relationship that was shown to them as children. They think that is what is normal.

Often, you're dealing with highly manipulative people who tell you that you're good and who hang on to you, but then take that away from you. It's a difficult thing to describe to somebody if they've never dealt with it or experienced it.

My first question would be, how would you define coercive control? I can give you a reference that we have if you want it, but if you already have one, I'd love to hear it.

[Taylor Briscoe]

A reference would be fine. We can comment on that as well.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

There is a bill. It's Bill C-332, which is an act to amend the Criminal code. One part of it references coercive conduct as "including a fear of violence, a decline in their physical or mental health or a substantial adverse effect on their day-to-day activities."

[Taylor Briscoe]

In addition to that, part of the definition we provide is the inclusion of specific acts, such as threats, intimidation or isolation, as well as a separate piece for the application of those against children and weaponizing the removal of children.

We see that it does increase the education of what constitutes abuse for women. We don't ever want to be too prescriptive, because it simply gives the abuser a way to innovate. That's the balance of law that we need to be able to provide for all victims.

Those are incredibly important to include so that we do enumerate certain pieces. We extend that to the children as well to give them a lever to pull so that they can stand up and say, "This happened to me. It was a betrayal by my parent or protector, and this wasn't supposed to happen." They deserve that justice too.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

Do you use the term "coercive control" with the folks using your services? Are they familiar with it?

[Barbara Ridley]

We have just started using that term. Before that it was "intimate partner violence" or "domestic violence". It is a new term, and we have been using it.

To the women and children who come to us, we explain it as repetitive behaviour that is silent and not an act of overt violence. It's controlling, such as needing the phone to see whom they called. That repeated behaviour is what we term "coercive behaviour". It's very effective, because that's when women start saying, "Oh, that happened to me."

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

They have to make that connection.

I like that you reiterated that it's a pattern. I think we've heard that from other witnesses.

Do you think it's beneficial to replace "domestic violence" with "coercive control", or do you think they're interchangeable?

Sometimes the wording in itself can create confusion.

[Barbara Ridley]

I see that domestic violence can include a child to a parent or a grandparent, aunt or uncle. It's familial violence, whereas intimate partner violence is between a couple who is intimate. There's also coercive control. I like the three terms, because coercion is that silent killer, that silent violence. Many people are unaware that it's wrong. They think, unless they've been hit, kicked or spat upon, that it hasn't happened, but, in fact, it has.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

Can you just touch on your housing? I think that's critical.

Can we get on record your recommendations, that you'd like to see more affordable, safe housing, and what you'd like to see the government do to achieve that?

[Taylor Briscoe]

[Inaudible—Editor] we're talking about supply all across the country, and there's a large focus on supply for ownership purposes. There needs to be an equal focus now and investment on the creation and the maintenance of current affordable supply. That includes investments in the entire spectrum: emergency, transitional and supportive shelters. That's what we would be calling for.

[The Chair, Conservative, Shelby Kramp-Neuman]

Thank you.

Emmanuella, you have five minutes.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'd like to thank all of our witnesses for being here to answer some questions today.

I'm going to start with Ms. Pigeau.

You spoke about indigenous women, girls and gender-diverse people. You expressed some concerns with criminalizing coercive control. You also spoke about the different experience that indigenous women have had when dealing with the police. That's something we've heard many times at this committee.

I'm wondering if you can speak a little more to what particular recommendations you would make to our committee for us to put forward in this study on coercive control, in particular, with regard to the fact that when women sometimes go to the police or the authorities, their children may be taken away from them. That is also something we've heard from witnesses at this committee.

It is crazy that this happens in this day and age, and I'm wondering if you could speak a little to that and talk about what protections we can be recommending here to make sure that whatever it is we end up doing, doesn't negatively impact this community.

[Lisa Pigeau]

Undoing what's happened over 200 years is not going to happen overnight. The systemic oppression that we've experienced isn't going to go away with the criminalization of behaviour. Our recommendations would be around awareness, both for persons who may be experiencing coercive behaviour and also in terms of education within the systems, within the authorities, within policing, within justice, within health care. I think those are the primary recommendations to ensure that there are some other supportive safeguards around. There are other systems such as education and whatnot that would play an additional important role in curbing the coercive behaviours, but I think the issues that were raised as well by my fellow witnesses today, especially around housing and that barrier-free access...

The question of how you undo the 200 years, to undo the colonization, I'm not certain I could answer in this short of a time for you. I think the long and the short of it is involving us in the discussions, involving us in the change, involving us in the plans, and allowing us to find out the information, making attempts to repair challenging relationships. We see some movement towards that, but much more has to be done.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you very much. I guess my question didn't really.... I didn't express it very well, but I appreciate your response.

I guess my next question is for Ms. Gill. You spoke about the fact that the criminal justice system needs to get more involved in order for this to be more effective, and you spoke about getting the police and the justice system to react to coercive control and to be able to act on it. Do you think that our criminal justice system is equipped to effectively respond to coercive control becoming a criminal offence?

[Prof. Carmen Gill]

Without training, without awareness about what it is, I'm not sure, but if you provide some tools, if you provide some information, if you do some sessions with different stakeholders, then you could be prepared for that.

I gave a presentation to the National Judicial Institute with judges. This is my third presentation in three years about coercive control, and they're looking at how they can see this in their profession. You already see there's a willingness to learn more about this, but we also need to recognize that it's not just the justice system that needs to be better equipped; it's also the health care system and social services that will need to be better equipped. I mean, everyone who is going to work with survivors and abusers needs to better understand what we're dealing with. It's a big undertaking, but it's one step at a time, and if I can surf on what Madame Pigeau was saying, we don't solve the issue overnight. We are dealing with systemic issues as well, so we need to take this into consideration.

[The Chair, Conservative, Shelby Kramp-Neuman]

Excellent. Thank you.

Next, we have Andréanne. You have two and a half minutes.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Once again, I thank the witnesses for being with us today and contributing to this important study whose goal is to find a solution to the epidemic of domestic violence.

Ms. Pigeau, coercive control will obviously not be stemmed by a simple wave of a magic wand. We need to think about measures and the continuum of services that will need to be put in place.

We recently did a study on implementing a red dress alert. There's a lot of talk about training within police departments. Yet, to restore trust, it's essential to clearly explain what coercive control can be. As part of the study on the implementation of a red dress alert, I interviewed a witness representing indigenous people, who reminded me how important it was to work to rebuild trust with police officers and to train them properly so that they can contribute to this effort. What do you think?

[Lisa Pigeau]

I think it's an important step. We have to rebuild that trust with the system, especially policing. I think there has to be a shift from the view of policing being a punitive body, because that is the perspective of indigenous women. When police are involved, there's punishment involved rather than policing being a system that's there to support us and to bring us to safety.

How you make that shift involves many system players. It involves, really, just at the base, the involvement of all indigenous people and, more specifically, indigenous women.