Evidence of meeting #11 for Status of Women in the 44th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was men.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Shelby Kramp-Neuman Conservative Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON
Thank you.
My last question is for Simon, and I'm going to try it in French.
You said that feminist groups were very important when it comes to improving the situation. What can you say about groups that deal with violent men? Are there enough of them?
Full Professor, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
That's a good question.
When you compare the different countries, you see that feminist groups are definitely the most important element. The countries that have made the most progress in solving the problem of violence against women and spousal violence are the ones where feminist groups are the most vibrant and the strongest. So this is very important.
In my testimony, I alluded briefly to groups for men. At present, this is very uneven across Canada. It would be a good idea to have more, but the important thing is to make sure that the groups working with men offer high quality programs that are consistent everywhere in Canada and are aligned with the values of the feminist movement.
As well, it would be a good idea to adopt a process for accrediting these groups, so that when a man is referred to one of these groups, we know for sure that he will have access to a high quality program that focuses on taking responsibility.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Karen Vecchio
Thank you so much.
We're now going to move for next four minutes to Emmanuella.
Emmanuella, you have the floor.
Liberal
Emmanuella Lambropoulos Liberal Saint-Laurent, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I'd like to begin by thanking all of our witnesses for their amazing testimony. I had to shut off my camera so that you wouldn't see my face because it was not pretty when I was listening to some of the testimony. This is not easy for any of us, I'm sure, but sometimes a lot of these conversations hit home.
Ms. MacGregor and Monsieur Lapierre, my main questions will be for you. I'm going to ask one question because I only have a couple of minutes.
You both speak about what is lacking in the system currently for supporting women.
Because of these gaps, women have trouble finding the help they need. As well, the system runs counter to the interests of young children who find themselves in a family violence situation.
Ms. MacGregor, you speak about needing a bold shift, a bold change. I'd like to hear from you specifically what you're referring to when you say this. I know that organizations and funding organizations are really trying to do their best to do that part because we know that's where everybody goes to get that first help.
What else needs to shift? What laws need to be strengthened? What needs to be admissible in court, for example, in order to change the situation so that women are empowered, and not the opposite?
Mr. Lapierre, you can answer first, if you like.
Full Professor, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Personally, I think we have to prioritize both things.
First, action needs to be taken on coercive control. I'm talking about criminalizing coercive control, but we also need a clear definition of coercive control, one that could really be integrated into the various fields I referred to.
Second, I come back to the importance of supporting the feminist movement properly. The worthwhile innovations we have seen in recent years are the ones that came out of the women's movement, the ones made by and for women. The government has a role to play by continuing and increasing its support for an autonomous feminist movement that is able to innovate, taking into account local circumstances as well as national circumstances.
I have personally worked for two years with the Fédération des maisons d'hébergement pour femmes in Quebec. We have seen shelters saying enough is enough. Youth protection workers have to be better trained. In that regard, an intervention model has been designed that is currently being implemented in various regions.
What we see is that the worthwhile initiatives often come from the base—from feminist organizations. We have to not just continue supporting them, but provide even more support for them and recognize their expertise and leadership in this field.
Liberal
Emmanuella Lambropoulos Liberal Saint-Laurent, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Lapierre.
Ms. MacGregor, you don't have much time, but in one minute, what are the big bold changes that you would suggest?
Executive Director, Women's Centre for Social Justice
Thank you so much.
I just want to say that whilst I respect Monsieur Lapierre's comments on coercive control, I fundamentally and radically disagree with him. I don't believe that coercive control should be criminalized. I think that if the system is not nuanced enough to even understand physical violence—it can see broken arms and broken limbs—how can it understand the nuances of coercive control?
I think the criminalization of this process of violence is only going to harm certain communities, and I'm talking again about how women are going to be the ones who are going to be criminalized. Women are going to be the ones who are going to be arrested. Women, especially black and indigenous women, are going to be the ones at the receiving end of the criminal legal system's “one size fits all”.
For me, the one bold thing that can be done is to adopt transformative justice—transformative accountability, which is about community accountability. That form of transformative justice actually supports both the individuals who have caused harm and the individuals who have been harmed and does it in a way that does not penalize, does not shame and does not throw people away. It is a way of showing love and bringing people back into their humanity and leading with empathy. That's one shift that I would suggest. It's to move away from the criminal penalization and into transformative justice and accountability.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Karen Vecchio
Thank you very much.
We're now going to move it over to Andréanne for two minutes.
Andréanne, you have the floor.
Bloc
Andréanne Larouche Bloc Shefford, QC
I would like to thank the witnesses again for their sometimes very poignant testimony.
For the two minutes I have, I would like to address Mr. Lapierre.
Mr. Lapierre, you opened the door on the subject of the distinctive nature of Quebec and the initiatives recently taken by the government of Quebec to help combat spousal violence, including the creation of a committee and publication of a report. As well, tracking bracelets have started to be used and specialized sexual violence and spousal violence courts have been established.
Do you think these legislative and judicial measures are effective and necessary? Should the federal government follow Quebec's lead and move in this direction? If so, could you suggest a few options?
Full Professor, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
What we have seen happen in Quebec in recent years is extremely interesting. I was on the committee whose work led to the "Rebâtir la confiance" report, and I am personally quite impressed to see the extent to which the government has implemented many of the recommendations that came out of that report.
I think that the specialized courts are particularly worth looking at. Having the judicial system better aligned with psychosocial services seems to me to be very important. Above all, we have to understand that even if a lot of measures are put in place, many of them will unfortunately not achieve their full potential if they are not accompanied by adequate training for all actors in the system, including social workers, police, lawyers and judges. Training is extremely important and should be extended across Canada.
I would therefore really emphasize training, but also other measures such as specialized courts, along with access to information and legal advice for victims free of charge. Many measures worth considering have been put in place in Quebec. They still need to be evaluated, but they are certainly very promising.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Karen Vecchio
Excellent. Thank you so much.
Finally, for our last round of questions, I'm going to pass it over to Leah Gazan.
Leah, you have two minutes.
NDP
Leah Gazan NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
Thank you so much. I just want to go back to Madame MacGregor.
You mentioned that when you finally leave, you have nowhere to go, and then when you find a place to go to, that place is totally ineffective for Black, indigenous, people of colour, with systems that were built by Caucasian males and not for the benefit for BIPOC, women and people with diverse genders.
How is perpetuating that system another form of targeted violence towards Black, indigenous and people of colour who are going into those systems? How is it another form of violence?
Executive Director, Women's Centre for Social Justice
It's not a matter of, how is it? It is, why is it? It is the fact that it is, right? It is by design.
That's why we are constantly at the receiving end, because not only does anti-Black and anti-indigenous racism play a part, it's embedded in these systems. Because it's embedded in these systems, the solutions that are currently—and I use the word “solutions” lightly—manifest are designed not to benefit....
Whilst again, I respect frontline workers, my work is founded on the lived experiences of survivors who are fleeing and looking for safety.
What we know is that the systems that are in place, specialized domestic violence courts, are not specialized at all. They don't work. We've been conducting court watches of these specialized courts in Ontario for the past twelve years, and we have found that these specialized domestic violence courts don't work.
Shelters that are created are not the solution. I understand that it's in the short term and the immediate.... What is needed is proper safe housing, affordable housing, for people to go to when they leave. What is needed is child care. What is needed are the wages that women earn to be increased.
These are systemic changes that need to be made, because everything else—and I keep talking about it—is tinkering on the surface, and the people who are suffering are Black women, indigenous women, transwomen and BIPOC people, as you said.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Karen Vecchio
Thank you so much.
Thank you to everybody for the testimony today. As Emmanuella mentioned, it was very strong testimony. Thank you so much for coming out.
I'm going to suspend the meeting for a few minutes.
I will ask the witnesses to leave the meeting.
Our clerk will be welcoming our new set of panellists, so we'll suspend for just a few seconds.
Thank you to all.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Karen Vecchio
We'll resume the meeting.
Thank you so much to all the panellists for joining us.
I want to welcome them.
For our second panel, I would like to welcome, from the Ogijiita Pimatiswin Kinamatawin, Mr. Bourbonniere. Mitch is the outreach worker. From the YWCA of Peterborough Haliburton, we have Kim Dolan, the executive director. As an individual today, we have Lisa Crawford, the chief executive officer for Crawford Master Stylists. From Fort Saskatchewan Families First Society, we have Jodi Heidinger, the coordinator of the family violence prevention program.
We'll be providing each panellist with five minutes.
Lisa and Jodi, you will be combining your five minutes.
At about one minute, I'll give you a sign to let you know that you have about one minute left, and then I'll start asking you to wrap it up with about 10 seconds left to go.
Mitch, I'm going to pass the floor over to you first. You have five minutes.
Mitch Bourbonniere Outreach Worker, Ogijiita Pimatiswin Kinamatawin
Thank you very much.
It is a great honour to be on this panel. I was able to view the earlier testimony and I'm very moved and emotional.
I'm an outreach worker for Ogijiita Pimatiswin Kinamatawin, or OPK Manitoba.
OPK works with and provides wraparound support for indigenous men primarily, but also those who identify as male from any background. Many of the men I work with have spent a considerable amount of time on the street and/or in prison. Both environments exhibit an intense culture of toxic masculinity. This includes presenting as physically dominant, using power and control, and getting your own needs met at the expense of others. This comes from the historical background in our society where boys are taught not to cry, not to show their emotions or ask for help or tell others how they feel, and certainly not to express love for others.
Most of the men I work with were raised as little boys in homes that were fraught with domestic violence. As little boys they were horrified when their mothers were traumatized. They wanted to protect their mother, but felt too small and powerless and were frozen in fear. Unfortunately, as they witnessed this again and again over the years, it became normal. As they reached the teenage years, they began to display the same behaviours as the men they were exposed to.
Men come to me in desperation when they have lost everything. We teach our men they are not to blame for having been taught this toxic masculinity, but are definitely 100% responsible for changing their behaviours. We tell them, you are not responsible for what happened to you, but you are totally responsible for doing something about it.
We run welcoming, open-ended men's groups, where men gather together without judgment. We share a meal, indigenous ceremonies and profound talking circles. We talk about being better fathers, sons, partners, nephews, uncles, etc. We talk about past traumas, substance use and relationships.
These groups welcome everyone, judge no one and often benefit someone. Sessions are extremely organic and natural. We do not subscribe to timelines, PowerPoint, Workbooks or modules or any of that kind of thing. Ultimately, the men heal by being vulnerable and learning from one another. We learn to express ourselves. We learn to ask for help. We learn to show emotions. We learn to cry. We learn to tell others we love them.
Eventually the men embark on giving back to the community in a show of lateral kindness rather than lateral violence. We do safety patrols in neighbourhoods. We help women and children get out of dangerous situations, and we support events that promote the safety and acknowledgement of women, two-spirit and trans people.
On several occasions we've been called upon to sit with an abusive male partner while he watches his family pack up their belongings and leave. We turn to this fellow and tell him, “There's a consequence to your behaviour, and this is it.” We let him know that if there's ever a chance for him to get this family back, he will need to make changes. We invite him to our groups. We tell him, we will work with him.
Meegwetch.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Karen Vecchio
Thank you so much, Mitch. That's from the....
Mitch, you will have to pronounce this name for me.
Outreach Worker, Ogijiita Pimatiswin Kinamatawin
It's Ogijiita. That's the warrior spirit. The warrior spirit in men and women and trans.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Karen Vecchio
Thank you so much. I really appreciate your teaching me that today.
I'm now going to move it over to the YWCA and Kim Dolan.
Kim, you have five minutes.
Kim Dolan Executive Director, YWCA Peterborough Haliburton
Thank you so much.
I am joining you today from Nogojiwanong, the "place at the end of the rapids" on Treaty 20 Michi Saagig territory.
We are all familiar with the terms “domestic violence”, “abusive relationships”, “violence against women”, “partner abuse” and “intimate violence”, and we know the acronyms DV, VAW and IPV. There's power in language. The choices we make to describe a person, an event, a crisis, a disease or a catastrophe anchor images in our individual and collective psyches, and the stories we tell become the foundation of the things we believe.
Thank you for this opportunity to contribute to the work of the standing committee. You have now received more than 58 briefs. You've heard from over 52 witnesses. You have access to StatsCan data. There's a report card on Canada's actions on UN sustainable development goal number five, which is gender equality. There are public resources on federal websites that explain gender-based violence and offer to help those who experience violence.
I can say that I'm a survivor of violence, but what does that tell you about me? I was seven when a strange man exposed himself to me and my cousin, and 10 when roadwork crews began wolf-whistling and calling out sexual invitations. I was 17 when I was surrounded by five drunk, young men on my way home one evening. I was 22 when I married a man who used abusive tactics to control me. I was 30 when I started working in the women's anti-violence sector. I was 38 when I changed my life, and 60 when a man with power slammed a table between us at a public meeting. Throughout my life, I, like many other women in Canada, have been subjected to daily reminders of my fragile safety on the street, in the news, at meetings and in the movies.
Descriptions of physical, sexual, emotional and psychological violence experienced by women—let me rephrase that. Descriptions of violence imposed on women by men, focus on the women, and our response thus far has been to get women away to safety. That's important. We know lots about the victims and not so much about the antagonists and that guy—those guys, who have more physical, financial, and decision-making power. We all know it. We see it in movies, in our families, in our institutions, in corporations and in public office. The continuum of harmful behaviours is long and the harm caused is deep.
Here's what I suggest. I have five or six things. UN sustainable development goal number five, gender equality, is an important stand-alone goal, but it can't function alone. All 17 goals have to work together to ensure that Canada's work is informed by an intersectional gender equity lens if we hope to achieve our goals by 2030.
Words matter. Let's describe the behaviour and the person responsible for causing harm, inflicting gender-based violence or reinforcing gendered assumptions. Stop hiding the protagonist from view. The term “partner”, for instance, implies respect, trust and shared goals. I don't use “partner violence”, because a partner isn't violent.
We need to achieve optimal health and participation. Canada's work developing and promoting the social determinants of health provides 12 determinants that we can use as a lens or a checklist when developing new policies, programs and data collection. Intersectionality—I know you've heard it before—is a lens that was described by legal scholar, Kimberlé Crenshaw back in 1989. That can be used to surface the systems of oppression that overlap to create distinct barriers for people with multiple identity categories.
We need stronger community-based responses and data collection. The brief that was submitted to the committee in February of this year references two primary data sources for measuring intimate partner violence. Please fund women's organizations to support robust data collection and describe the impact of programs. The Women Speak project is a good example.
We are accustomed to seeing solutions to move women out of violence and to move women away from their homes, but that isn't the answer.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Karen Vecchio
Thank you very much, Ms. Dolan.
I'm now going to pass it over for the next presentation. We have both Lisa and Jodi, so I'll let you share your time.
You have five minutes.
Lisa Crawford Chief Executive Officer, Crawford Master Stylists, As an Individual
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Before we get started, I'd like to take the opportunity to acknowledge that we are on Treaty 6 territory, the home of the many first nations people who were here before us.
Thank you so much for inviting me here today; it means the world to me.
I created the SADA fund in 2018. SADA stands for salons against domestic abuse. This fund was created after a client had come in to my establishment to get their hair done, and when I went to remove the cape, I saw physical signs of violence around her throat and impact on the back of her neck. This situation changed my life forever.
I spoke to the Fort Saskatchewan Families First Society about this incident, and they told me that one of the largest barriers is financial support, because I asked how I could help. My salon and two other local salons started a fundraiser through the Fort Saskatchewan Families First violence prevention program. These funds are available to those who are fleeing abuse.
This is very useful, and it works. It's another option for victims who cannot get access to any other source of income or can't get Alberta Works. It is so beneficial also because it is very quick and flexible. The feedback from victims who have received SADA funds is beyond positive and beyond moving. It's paramount.
We need to collectively find a way to grow SADA or something like it and get it all across Canada. The SADA fund survives from donations from members of our community and from donations from my company. With increasing incidents of family violence and IPV from the COVID pandemic, this fund will not be sustained because too many are affected by the shadow pandemic.
This topic has a lot of layers to it, and there are many ways we can help, but I have seen and heard how SADA has given people a second chance. A direct quote from a recipient is, “I went from barely existing to existing again. Thank you.”
Once again, we need to find a way to get SADA across Canada.
We're also focusing on our Cut it Out theory, the program that we deliver to salon and spa professionals. This education is crucial for the salon industry to recognize indicators of family violence and know how to deal with their disclosures without putting these victims into further danger.
Everyone agrees that family violence and IPV is a massive issue today. It does not matter what your political party is, what you support or what you do for a career. Everyone agrees that this is a human issue, and it is severe. Unfortunately, we cannot stop it, but we can work together to find some resolution. SADA is a fantastic option, often referred to as a magic wand that many non-profits do not have. Anyone who hears about SADA knows how quickly it has grown, because it truly is rare. Everyone wants to be a part of something amazing, and I believe this is why it has done so well.
Jodi Heidinger Coordinator, Family Violence Prevention Program, Fort Saskatchewan Families First Society
Hello, everyone. Thank you for the invitation to share with you today.
My name is Jodi Heidinger, and I am the coordinator for the family violence prevention program here with Families First in Fort Saskatchewan. We support a small suburban and rural area here in Alberta at Fort Saskatchewan in the Sturgeon County region, and our primary funding comes from the City of Fort Saskatchewan, along with supplementary funding from the United Way. This funding allows us to provide long-term supports that assist individuals with removing the barriers that have been keeping them from transitioning into a life free from abuse. This support includes threat assessment and safety planning, needs assessment, education and outreach, advocacy, court support and referrals.
As a former RCMP officer and now in my current position, I have been working for the last 20 years on the ground with victims and survivors of abuse and collaboratively with community partners to address family violence. I know you all know that family violence is a very complex issue.
Individuals who are looking to leave their abusive relationships face many barriers in doing so. Being trauma informed and walking with clients have given us an opportunity to see just where the challenges lie. When clients finally feel ready to leave their abusive relationships, they consistently see the barriers that keep them from doing so: access to transitional safe housing, practical and sustainable income, legal supports and long-term mental health supports that are inclusive.
Supports that currently exist and help clients are not always easy to access in a timely manner, and if they do qualify for such supports, there are usually parameters in place on how the funds can be used.
We are extremely grateful for our partnership with SADA. It has improved the way we've been able to support families impacted by violence. It's a tool that we use in parallel with other program supports, and funds are immediate and flexible. This gives us the capacity to provide timely, safe transition for clients in need. That SADA fund allows us to effectively respond to situations requiring our immediate intervention with hope for more time to focus on critical prevention, like working with men and boys in our community to challenge deeply rooted belief systems and our society's acceptance of toxic masculinity. This is the ultimate goal we need if we are to move towards our collective goal of eliminating violence in our communities.
Thank you.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Karen Vecchio
Thank you so much, and also to everyone else for your opening statements.
We're going to our first round of questioning. There will be six minutes for each of our speakers.
I'm going to pass the floor over now to Michelle Ferreri.
Michelle, you have six minutes.
Conservative
Michelle Ferreri Conservative Peterborough—Kawartha, ON
Thank you so much to these witnesses and to all my colleagues today. What a day of intense testimony. Thank you to everybody on the first panel as well.
I want to start with Lisa Crawford.
Lisa, I'm really impressed with the work you've done. I'm fortunate to know you and to be able to know what you've done. It's amazing work.
I'm curious about your thoughts on the prevention end of things. As a federal government, what can we instill to help these women before they have those marks on their neck, before they're sitting in your chair, before they're victims?