Evidence of meeting #110 for Status of Women in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was family.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:15 p.m.
NDP
Leah Gazan NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
Okay, perfect.
I would like to now go over to you, Madam Parsa.
Would you also agree to not criminalize coercive control?
4:15 p.m.
Staff Lawyer, Women's Legal Education and Action Fund
Yes, we do agree with that.
We also submitted a brief to the JUST committee that outlines our submissions in more depth.
4:15 p.m.
NDP
Leah Gazan NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
I have another question for you.
You were talking about focusing instead on prevention or ways that people exiting violence can actually do that.
One thing that I put forward, which will be voted on in the fall, is to put in place a guaranteed livable basic income.
Do you agree that we need a guaranteed livable basic income as one way to deal with the gender-based violence crisis?
4:15 p.m.
Staff Lawyer, Women's Legal Education and Action Fund
I think that absolutely having a basic income, along with having affordable public services, housing and increased social protections would all assist in helping survivors know that they can be safe if they if they need to leave their relationship.
4:15 p.m.
NDP
Leah Gazan NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
Would you recommend a guaranteed livable basic income in addition to other supports and services meant to meet specific and special needs?
4:15 p.m.
NDP
Leah Gazan NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
Okay, thank you.
I'll go over to you, Ms. Koshan. Would you also agree?
4:15 p.m.
Prof. Jennifer Koshan
Yes, for the exact same reasons mentioned by Ms. Parsa, I agree that it's a very important way of ensuring social and economic support.
4:15 p.m.
NDP
Leah Gazan NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
Okay, that's wonderful.
Madam Barrette and Madam Riendeau, would you recommend putting in place a guaranteed livable basic income in addition to other supports meant to meet specific and special needs as a key action to deal with gender-based violence and people fleeing coercive control?
4:15 p.m.
Co-responsible for Political Affairs, Regroupement des maisons pour femmes victimes de violence conjugale
Yes, absolutely.
Access to a decent income, safe and affordable social housing and different social policies are essential factors in helping women fleeing violence do so more easily.
4:15 p.m.
NDP
Leah Gazan NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
Thank you so much.
Madam Koshan, you spoke a lot about parental alienation. Do you believe that courts should not be able to use parental alienation as an argument in cases?
4:15 p.m.
Prof. Jennifer Koshan
Yes, I agree with that. I have a bit of a caveat, if I could take one second to mention it. There needs to be a distinction made between parental alienation allegations made against mothers and what we sometimes see from fathers, which is a real sabotage of children's relationships with their mothers, which itself is a form of family violence, so I think we need to keep a distinction between those two different types of practices. If we can do that, then, yes, I think parental alienation arguments should not be permitted in family courts.
4:15 p.m.
Staff Lawyer, Women's Legal Education and Action Fund
At this point, LEAF does not support a full ban on parental alienation, because we need to do some more internal work on establishing our position on this, but we do think that it is certainly extremely important for courts and judges to be educated on the ways in which litigation is used as a form of abuse.
One thing we're afraid of if coercive control becomes a new criminal offence is that it will also be weaponized against women as a form, essentially, of coercive control. We think that it is crucial that courts and members of the legal system are educated and continue to learn about this.
4:15 p.m.
NDP
Leah Gazan NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
Do you recommend educating courts and others about what parental alienation is?
4:15 p.m.
Conservative
4:15 p.m.
Conservative
Michelle Ferreri Conservative Peterborough—Kawartha, ON
Thanks, Chair.
Thank you to our witnesses today here at status of women, a.k.a. FEWO, as we study coercive control.
We've seen a drastic rise in domestic violence. We've heard some wild stories which my colleagues around the table and all the women here today have shared.
I'll start with you, Ms. Koshan. I think it would be beneficial in this report to have a definition, because you've outlined this, of a protective mother. I always, for the record, want to say that this does happen to men. I always want to say this. This can happen any place, but we are focusing on women here. What is the difference between a protective mother versus coercive control? What is the definition? I think the definition is a key part of this conversation.
4:20 p.m.
Prof. Jennifer Koshan
Yes, and it's challenging to do in the limited time that we have, but—
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
Michelle Ferreri Conservative Peterborough—Kawartha, ON
You are very welcome to submit a written reply, because I do understand that this is very big, and it's like, “Oh, in 10 seconds, tell us about it”. I understand that, so if you want to submit a written submission, we'd love to have it as well.
4:20 p.m.
Prof. Jennifer Koshan
Yes, thank you.
Maybe what I'll do, just to try to put a fine point on it, is say that coercive control, in the way that it's understood as a form of intimate partner violence or family violence, is all about the impact that it has on the autonomy of the victim, so it's a pattern of conduct that has an impact on the autonomy of the victim.
Whereas, if we think about mothers' protective conduct, they are not engaged in that conduct in order to impair the autonomy of fathers; they are trying to protect their children. In part I think that it's the difference in the intent behind the conduct, what they're trying to achieve through the conduct, and I think that there is a real distinction to be drawn between attempting to protect one's children and attempting to control one's partner in a way that impairs their autonomy.
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
Michelle Ferreri Conservative Peterborough—Kawartha, ON
Yes. I think you've pointed out the challenges and complications of this and why it is so important that judges be so critically educated in this. There's a nuance here. For anybody who has had experience in an abusive relationship, sometimes the abuse or the toxic relationship between the intimate partners is vile, but they're able to have relationships with their children, or the children need to see each parent, but the system is set up now so that the children are pawns for money, for all these things.
The cost of living crisis further alienates or forces women into abusive relationships. There are stats now. A National Post article had the headline, “Divorce rates in Canada falling because Canadians simply can't afford it”. We already know that money is one of the biggest reasons you can't leave a relationship, if they have financial control.
Thank you for the great handouts. They're super helpful in educating the public in terms of the definitions.
Many people don't even know they're in an unhealthy relationship because that's all they've ever known, and the children don't know. We want to intervene and pull that apart and break that pattern, and then you have articles like this saying, “the main reasons wedding bells aren't ringing seems to be the hefty price tag and overall cost of living”, or the inability to afford to leave or to access housing.
I don't know who wants to chime in on that, but I'd love to see something in the report around that. The cost of living is a very big factor in allowing women to break free from abusive relationships.
I see Louise making eye contact, so I'll ask Louise to comment.
