Status of Women Committee on May 23rd, 2024

[Amy Deschamps]

I can echo what Lori has shared in that often we see that being used as another form of abuse. We know that children are often used as pawns in the custody and access process, as was spoken to earlier, and that's one of the most powerful weapons of coercive control in the reality that we know. There is no greater fear a mother has than loss of control or the loss of the life of her child. This is often a threat that is made by an abusive partner, so I would have to agree and echo those sentiments, that there is no place for that in the court system.

[Gabrielle Comtois]

I'd like to add that the control an aggressor exercises on a woman's life may begin long before children are conceived. We're talking about reproductive coercion when power is exercised or a domination dynamic exists with regard to the decision whether to have children or to use means of contraception. That's also part of the continuum of violence that women in abusive situations experience.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you very much.

Thank you for your answers.

Ms. Comtois, you briefly touched on the importance of educating our children and the general public to a greater degree on the concept of consent.

I'd like to know what you think the Canadian government can do about that.

[Gabrielle Comtois]

According to the statistics that we see, 8 out of 10 women know their aggressor, and more than half of sexual assaults occur in private homes. It's a myth, in law and among the general public, that sexual assault is always committed by an unknown person in a dark alley. That's not the case. Most often, it involves people who actually know each other.

Consequently, we think it's essential to conduct public education campaigns in order to stop violence before it occurs. The federal government can take action in this area by conducting advertising campaigns and creating educational videos. The idea is to change the culture that normalizes that behaviour.

The first bulwarks aren't the community organizations; they are friends and family members who can recognize this behaviour on the aggressor's part and ensure that it isn't permitted. They can also reach out to the victim. Community organizations play a major role, but the community is the first bulwark.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you very much.

Is my time up?

[The Chair, Conservative, Shelby Kramp-Neuman]

I didn't wave for my first 30 seconds, so I think I confused you.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you to the witnesses.

[The Chair, Conservative, Shelby Kramp-Neuman]

Thank you.

Andréanne, you have five minutes.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thanks to the witnesses for being with us as part of this important study. In Quebec, at least, we would like coercive control to be criminalized.

Ms. Comtois, you mentioned the national action plan, and you said you lamented the fact that the organizations working in the domestic violence field and those in the sexual violence field operate in separate silos. Would you please tell us more about what should be changed in the national action plan to combat violence against women and about how that might benefit you?

[Gabrielle Comtois]

The essential problem is the lack of resources. Year after year since the COVID-19 pandemic, we've seen an increasingly sharp rise in the number of survivors seeking our services. In the wake of the #MeToo movement, we've observed that people wait less and less time to file a complaint and that those who do are increasingly younger. We see that prevention works. The problem is that we're overwhelmed. Our waiting lists are growing longer, and front line workers can't provide adequate services anymore. It's too much. We don't have half the resources we need to operate properly.

The national action plan could provide additional funding to support the mission of these organizations. We currently operate on project funding, and it's good, but every project brings extra responsibilities with it. Since our waiting lists are a year long, we really don't need to be taking on more responsibilities or managing a brand new project. That won't help us meet our existing demand, which keeps on growing.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

I don't know if you had a chance to read the article by Stéphanie Grammond that appeared in La Presse this morning. You mentioned rising demand and the lack of resources needed to meet it. In her article, Ms. Grammond laments the fact that, since the start of this year, 14 femicides have been committed in Quebec, more than for all of 2023, and this is only the month of May.

Ms. Grammond has addressed the issue because various groups in Quebec are calling for a bill. However, right now at the federal level, Bill C-332, which the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights has considered, refers precisely to the criminalization of coercive control. Ms. Grammond emphasizes the following with regard to the bill: But there's no consensus on the issue. Some people argue that the definition of coercive control is vague and that certain acts that fall under that heading are already criminal, such as the act of intimidating people by stalking, threatening and depriving them of their keys and cell phones.

You mentioned in your presentation that some individuals use many tactics and various types of coercion. Do you think there are currently enough measures in the Criminal Code to punish someone who would stalk and threaten individuals and steal their keys and cell phones?

[Gabrielle Comtois]

For the moment, the ideal would be for the courts and judges to be able to acknowledge coercive control as a contextual factor. I believe that certain elements are already criminalized in the Canadian Criminal Code. However, further to what some of my peers who have previously appeared before the committee and who are appearing now have said, as well as the experts from the north, I would be very cautious about promoting the criminalization of coercive control. The information we currently have isn't enough to promote such a criminal measure. As I said, coercive control is a continuum. Judges and legal system stakeholders need to know that, understand it and be able to take it into consideration. So I would suggest that it be taken into consideration but not necessarily be set forth in law.

I hope that properly answers your question.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

You also mentioned economic inequalities, but my colleague will get back to that in the second round of questions. What stands out for me, in a nutshell, is that the national action plan should offer you more funding predictability and that the Criminal Code should perhaps provide you with a few more tools to intervene more effectively. Is my understanding correct?

[Gabrielle Comtois]

Yes, absolutely. Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Shelby Kramp-Neuman]

Excellent. Thank you for that.

Next is Leah Gazan.

You have five minutes.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you so much, Chair.

My first question is for Madam Deschamps.

You said in your testimony that you were doubtful our systems are capable of criminalizing coercive control, one of the reasons being the burden of proof is left on survivors. Can you expand on that?

[Amy Deschamps]

Absolutely. Even just in thinking about where the assessment needs to start in the training of the officers on the ground in assessing the situation, the nuances and the complexities of an individual or survivor trying to explain her stories and the impact of maybe a look or the many instances over a span of time of this type of coercive control that have been played out in her relationship, the individual across from her, the officer taking her statement, needs to have the training in assessment, the ability and the will to carry that forward and to identify that. I think the problem starts there.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

How can you criminalize something when there's still not really an understanding of what that looks like by the people who are enforcing the law? That's becoming very clear to me.

You also mentioned something about individuals who have power, such as within their jobs, like access to guns. Can you expand on that? I was interested in it. What do you mean by people who have access to guns? Who is that?

[Amy Deschamps]

We've seen recent studies and reports about the rates of perpetrators of violence who are in law enforcement. The rates of that are actually significantly higher than we would see in the general population. There have been several studies done. I think the percentage is 40% of partners of law enforcement officers are at risk versus 10% in the general population, so I think that—

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

I have limited time, and this is very important.

[Amy Deschamps]

Absolutely.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

I ask that because I asked it in another meeting, and I am aware of high rates of domestic violence that are perpetrated by police officers who would then be tasked with the responsibility to press charges, but they're also perpetrators of violence. That's a bit of a conflict of interest, in my opinion.

You were talking about investing instead—and we heard this in former testimony—in supports outside of the current system. In my riding, where we have a crisis of gender-based violence, the ground zero for MMIWG, Winnipeg has never had more money invested in policing, and I've never seen in our community the rate of violence increase to the level that it has. At the same time, we've seen decreases in supports.

One thing I've put forward in a bill is to put in place a guaranteed livable basic income, in addition to current and special supports, meant to meet specific and special needs. Would that help with dealing with the frontline crisis of gender-based violence, particularly for individuals trying to flee coercive control? It's a yes or no, because I'm going to ask all of the—

[Amy Deschamps]

Yes.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Professor Chambers, is that a yes or no?

[Dr. Lori Chambers]

Absolutely, it would be helpful.