Evidence of meeting #121 for Status of Women in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was centre.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Meseret Haileyesus  Founder and Executive Director, Canadian Center for Women's Empowerment
Linda Lafantaisie Renaud  Executive Director, Horizon Women's Centre
Sophie Gagnon  Executive Director, Juripop
Chief Nick Milinovich  Deputy Chief of Police, Peel Regional Police
Linda MacDonald  Co-Founder, Persons Against Non-State Torture
Jeanne Sarson  Co-Founder, Persons Against Non-State Torture
Christy Dzikowicz  Chief Executive Officer, Toba Centre for Children and Youth
Justine Fortin  Director, Legal Services, Juripop

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Shelby Kramp-Neuman

Hello, everyone. I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 121 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on the Status of Women.

Before we begin, I would like to ask that all in-person participants read the guidelines written on the updated cards on the table. These measures are in place to help prevent audio and feedback incidents and to protect the health and safety of all participants, including the interpreters.

I'd also like to remind all members of the following points.

Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. All comments should be addressed through the chair, please.

Members, please raise your hand if you wish to speak, whether you're participating in person or on Zoom.

I would also like to acknowledge our regret for the meeting starting a little bit tardily. It was out of our control. I extend that regret to our witnesses who have been extraordinarily patient while we have been in the House, and also to those who are online watching.

As a reminder to all, we do have a short, 15-minute segment at the end of today's meeting to go over the subcommittee's report and a couple of other administrative items. Therefore, we will close off with witnesses with about 15 minutes remaining, so that we can go in camera for that.

Pursuant to standing—

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

Dominique Vien Conservative Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC

I don't know if my device is the problem, but I can't hear anything, even though the volume is all the way up.

Andréanne Larouche Bloc Shefford, QC

I can hear just fine.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

Dominique Vien Conservative Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC

It's not working for me.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Shelby Kramp-Neuman

I think this is the same problem we had the other day.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

Dominique Vien Conservative Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC

I'll try another one.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Shelby Kramp-Neuman

I will continue to speak for a minute in English and see how the interpretation is.

Lisa.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

Dominique Vien Conservative Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC

It's good.

Lisa Hepfner Liberal Hamilton Mountain, ON

You might want to advise our witnesses that we have another vote that may interrupt our meeting, just so that they're aware and not surprised if we break again in the middle of our testimony.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Shelby Kramp-Neuman

I appreciate the heads up.

What Lisa acknowledged is that there may potentially be another vote in approximately 30 minutes. At this point we don't know, so we're going to carry on until the time. Indeed, if the bells do start to ring, then we'll deal with it then.

There is audio feedback. I don't know if anybody else is hearing it.

If I'm speaking, I'm just going to take my earpiece out so I don't hear myself, but if I need interpretation, I'll put it back on.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Monday, November 27, 2023, the committee is continuing with its study of coercive behaviour.

Before I welcome all the witnesses, I would like to provide a trigger warning. We will be discussing experiences related to violence and coercive control. This may be triggering to viewers with similar experiences. If indeed you feel distressed or need help, please advise the clerk.

For all of the witnesses and for members of Parliament, it is very important that we recognize that these are very difficult discussions. Let's try to be as compassionate as we can with our conversations.

At this point, I would like to welcome, from the Canadian Centre for Women's Empowerment, Meseret Haileyesus, founder and executive director, who is in the room.

We have the following witnesses by video conference.

From Horizon Women's Centre, we have Linda Lafantaisie Renaud, executive director.

From Juripop, we have Sophie Gagnon, executive director, and Justine Fortin, director of legal services.

We have, from Peel Regional Police, Nick Milinovich, deputy chief of police.

From Persons Against Non-State Torture, we have co-founders Linda MacDonald and Jeanne Sarson.

We also have, from Toba Centre for Children and Youth, Christy Dzikowicz, chief executive officer.

We will hear opening statements of up to five minutes from each organization represented here today. The opening statements will then be followed by rounds of questions from all members.

All of the witnesses who are online are here and we will be doing one panel this afternoon.

Marc Serré Liberal Nickel Belt, ON

Can we see them?

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Shelby Kramp-Neuman

We don't see them online here.

At this point, let's welcome Ms. Meseret Haileyesus for the five minutes.

While we're hearing you, we can sort out the other witnesses so that we're able to see them online.

Please go ahead with your opening remarks. You have up to five minutes.

Meseret Haileyesus Founder and Executive Director, Canadian Center for Women's Empowerment

Thank you.

Good afternoon. My name is Meseret Haileyesus. I am the founder and executive director of the Canadian Center for Women's Empowerment. We are the only Canadian not-for-profit organization that focuses on addressing all forms of economic abuse and economic injustice for survivors through system change, research and advocacy.

We appreciate being included in this important conversation on coercive behaviour. We know that things are changing quickly, but speaking as a founder and executive director, having as much time as possible to prepare for this appearance not only allowed us to prepare our knowledge, but it was also for our mental health.

CCFWE generally agrees with the finding of the report of the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights in 2021 that criminalizing coercive control could contribute to earlier prevention and intervention of intimate partner violence. However, we doubt that an offence alone can achieve the desired outcome.

Dear members, as you may know, many indigenous, racialized and other marginalized victims don't report less hidden forms of abuse and violence to the police because of previous problematic and traumatizing experiences with law enforcement. While this proposal may help, it leaves many without solutions, while potentially adding to it.

Reports from Australia on criminalizing coercive behaviour shows an increase in misidentifying aboriginal women as aggressors due to the systemic racism among police and the court system. Shockingly, the Queensland domestic and family violence death review found that almost half of all aboriginal women killed by intimate partner violence were previously wrongly identified by police as the aggressors instead of their abusive partners when reporting violence.

As a Black-woman- and survivor-led organization, we strongly recommend that the federal government take a survivor-centred approach to any potential coercive control offence and let survivors with different intersectional realities, such as newcomers, immigrants, gender-diverse people, and indigenous, racialized, disabled, senior and young women, lead. I respectfully urge this standing committee to recommend a trauma-informed, anti-oppressive and feminist lens to any legislation on coercive control if its goal is to validate victims' experiences. The offence must be based on the notion that domestic violence and coercive control are rooted in gender inequalities and are predominantly committed by men against women.

Dear members, economic abuse is a very common but often overlooked form of domestic abuse. It's part of coercive controlling behaviour by an abuser to restrict a victim's financial independence through economic control, employment sabotage and economic exploitation. A lack of access to finance is commonly the main reason that victims stay in an abusive relationship or return to them. They cannot afford to leave. There is also the long-lasting impact, as economic abuse follows victims through poor credit scores, debt and other financial impacts.

Our organization's research, conducted in the Ottawa region in 2021, highlighted that 95% of victims experienced economic abuse, similar to findings in the United States, Australia and the United Kingdom. In addition to that, abusers demanded that 86% of victims quit their work; 93% of their abusers did not allow them to have their own money, taking away paycheques and financial aid; 90% of victims had decision-making power taken from them by their abusers; 90% of abusers threatened physical harm if the victim paid rent or other bills; and 84% of abusers had built up debt under the victim's name.

These reported tactics serve as crucial indicators of coercive controlling behaviour and must be included in any legal or policy measures. To raise awareness of this often hidden type of coercive control, CCFWE recommends that the government must declare November 26 as a national awareness day.

CCFWE believes the criminal justice system should be the last mode of intervention. It doesn't address the systemic issues that prevent abuse from happening or prevent victims from leaving abuse. Therefore, systemic change is needed before we criminalize coercive control.

We urge the federal government to show its commitment to ending gender-based violence and validating survivors' experience by adequately funding social services; providing additional shelters and affordable housing; increasing access to legal aid; investing in ongoing training and awareness-raising campaigns on the signs and nature of coercive control behaviour; and collecting disaggregated data on various forms of coercive control, including economic abuse.

Once again, I would like to thank the committee members for the opportunity to speak on this important topic.

I also want to congratulate you, Madam Chair, on your appointment to this role. We look forward to working together.

Andréanne Larouche Bloc Shefford, QC

Point of order, Madam Chair.

There's no interpretation.

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Shelby Kramp-Neuman

I will continue to speak in English for a bit while we see if the interpretation is working.

Thanks you, Meseret, for attending and sharing your testimony.

Next, I would like to welcome Ms. Linda Lafantaisie Renaud. You have up to five minutes.

Thank you.

Linda Lafantaisie Renaud Executive Director, Horizon Women's Centre

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I would first like to thank the committee for allowing me this opportunity to speak today.

My name is Linda Lafantaisie Renaud. I am the executive director of the Horizon Women's Centre, or the Centre Horizon pour femmes, in Sturgeon Falls, Ontario. Ours is the only fully bilingual shelter in our region that offers francophone services 24 hours a day. Our services include a 10-bed emergency shelter, outreach and a transitional housing program. We are very unique in the fact that we offer in-house, trauma-based therapy in both official languages to women in our community who are survivors of partner violence.

I have worked at this agency for 34 years, and I have seen first-hand the detrimental effects that abuse has on women and their children. However, I have also seen many women and their children be able to live the life they truly deserve. Our work in violence against women's agencies can be very difficult, dangerous and discouraging, but it can also be the most rewarding at the same time.

Most women are now struggling to find affordable housing, and have been since COVID. They now face living a lot longer in shelters and long waiting times for social housing, even when they are approved for abuse priority by the housing authority. In our district, women have abuse priority. They now have a waiting time of well over one to two years. This contradicts the reason for instilling this abuse priority in the first place. The reality is that women and children are now finding accommodations that are not the safest but are the most affordable for them, and/or they are now returning to their partners.

I have noticed through my experience that more often than not, some women do not realize the danger they are in. I believe we need more public awareness campaigns on coercive abuse so that women can escape these types of abusers earlier and so that women can see the warning signs. Most of the time, the abuse escalates from emotional to physical abuse and even threatening or killing their partner, as well as their children, when the abuser realizes she is leaving.

Women often arrive at our shelter truly broken. Many women have a hard time expressing—

Leah Gazan NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB

I have a point of order, Madam Chair.

I apologize to the witness, but I'm having trouble hearing her with the headset. I'm a bit hard of hearing. I'm wondering if we can turn up the volume in the room so that I can hear her.

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Shelby Kramp-Neuman

Could we try to have the volume turned up in the room? Please make sure that no other microphones are turned on.

Leah Gazan NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB

I'm getting older and I'm not afraid to admit it. I'm sorry.

Emmanuella Lambropoulos Liberal Saint-Laurent, QC

I think this place has deafened a lot of us, to be honest.

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Shelby Kramp-Neuman

At this point, we'll go back to the witness. I'll just ask everyone to turn off their mics if they're not speaking, and we'll carry on.

Linda, obviously, you'll get back the last 30 seconds or so.

Go ahead.

5:30 p.m.

Executive Director, Horizon Women's Centre

Linda Lafantaisie Renaud

Thank you so much.

Women often arrive at our shelter feeling truly broken. Many women have a hard time expressing their needs and wants because most of them have been dictated to them by their abusers.

We see mothers struggling with their children, who are mimicking what they have witnessed, and we are faced at times with children who are physically and verbally abusive towards their mothers. The effect on children can oftentimes be seen when children of past residents are now seeking our services as adults because they are now victims of partner violence themselves. It's imperative that we work diligently to offer the most empathetic, supportive and empowering experience and to help them in being able to realize that they have the right to be free from abuse.

Forty-four per cent of women who have been in an intimate relationship experience abuse, indicated a Statistics Canada report in 2008. This does not shed light on how many women and children have been victims of sexual luring or trafficking and those who have not come forward or pressed charges due to fear of repercussions.

The amount of control that one single person can gain over another person is unimaginable to many, and there is no time limit to heal from the extreme trauma, effects and even dehumanization they have lived through. I will quote one woman's words that she stated to me: “It's not the physical and sexual abuse that he put me through that traumatically impacted my life. It's the 13 years of mental, emotional and financial abuse.”

Abusers need to be held accountable. Some ex-partners have such a high need to control that we are now seeing women—mothers, mostly—being put through the most cruel type of abuse, and it's being done through their children.

Some children are being coerced and influenced negatively by the abuser to refuse visitations with their mothers, and partners are refusing visitation rights to their ex-partners because they know that police will not get involved, as most custody orders do not have police enforcement clauses. This leads to mothers not being able to see their children for months and having long delays in the judicial system. The abusers are now utilizing parental alienation to their advantage.

Our work in violence against women is critical in protecting women's and children's lives. My recommendations are as follows: to increase annual funding to violence against women's shelters and agencies to reflect the actual cost of living; that coercive control be recognized in the Criminal Code; and that we fund public awareness campaigns on coercive abuse and what it is and how it affects women and children.

I would also suggest consultations with Pamela Cross, who is a Canadian feminist lawyer and a women's advocate, as I believe that could be instrumental in effectively describing coercive abuse in legal terms and advising the committee on potential underlying or detrimental actions that can be used against women.

Thank you.

5:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Shelby Kramp-Neuman

Thank you very much.

Next, I would like to welcome Ms. Sophie Gagnon and Ms. Justine Fortin.

You have up to five minutes.

Sophie Gagnon Executive Director, Juripop

Good afternoon, Madam Chair and members of the committee. Thank you for the opportunity to speak today.

Juripop is an organization whose mission is to improve access to justice for vulnerable people. It has been working with women who are victims of domestic and post-separation violence for several years. More specifically, it represents these individuals in their family law proceedings involving custody, separation, and protective measures.

We've noticed that the victims we represent have one thing in common: coercive control is part of their domestic violence experience.

We know that conversations around coercive control have recently focused more on criminalization.

Juripop would like to draw your attention to an aspect that we feel is still neglected: the impact of coercive control in family law, particularly in divorce cases. Almost every day, our lawyers see that family law courts misunderstand coercive control. This lack of understanding has real and significant consequences for victims.

Too often, the women Juripop represents are revictimized by judicial decisions that ignore patterns of violent and controlling behaviour that manifest as coercive control.

Family law courts can unintentionally perpetuate coercive control through different types of decisions, such as shared custody orders. Shared custody orders may seem common and trivial, but in a situation where coercive control is present, they allow the violent parent to maintain control over the mother and children. For example, the violent parent may refuse to co-operate on decisions related to the children's education, health and activities, or force the victim to remain in contact with them and constantly negotiate all of those things. The abuser may also use parenting time to interrogate the children about the victim's private life or try to turn the children against the victim, which is why we say that children are also victims of coercive control.

It's also important to know that courts tend to reject our requests for accommodation to ensure victims' physical and psychological safety during their testimony because the courts don't understand the difficulties related to coercive control. These measures, such as the presence of an intervenor during a discovery interview or the option to testify by video conference, are automatically granted in criminal matters.

All the situations I just described compel our lawyers to make considerable efforts to educate the court about coercive control: how it's defined, what it looks like and its consequences. The resulting legal workload is heavy, the emotional burden great and the financial cost to victims high, but we believe this could be mitigated if the justice system itself had a better understanding of the phenomenon from the outset.

That is why we believe that legislative reforms are needed at the federal level, specifically through the Divorce Act. We recommend explicitly including coercive control as a factor judges must consider when making decisions affecting children or separation. We believe that such recognition could build on the work that was done by recognizing family violence in the Divorce Act, and it would offer better protection to victims, including children.

We also recommend that training for new judges include a component on coercive control. The current lack of training creates significant gaps in assessing the situations experienced by victims and often makes it impossible to take this reality into account in judicial decisions.

In conclusion, Juripop believes that family law should be a component of the committee's study on the criminalization of coercive control.

Thank you.

5:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Shelby Kramp-Neuman

Thank you.

Next we have Mr. Nick Milinovich.

You have up to five minutes.