Evidence of meeting #122 for Status of Women in the 44th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was children.
A recording is available from Parliament.
As an Individual
Yes, 100%. It's well documented in the case law and literature.
NDP
Leah Gazan NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
Witness 2, I know you spoke a lot about the abuse you experienced at the hands of your father. That's traumatic, and I'm sorry that your childhood was impacted by violence.
To go back to the quote I just gave, you were a child who communicated fear of the father. We're studying coercive control. How did not having proper things in place to protect victims from being accused of parental alienation make you more unsafe?
NDP
Leah Gazan NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
Well, you were saying that your mother was accused of alienating your father.
NDP
Leah Gazan NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
As a result, you had to go to therapy. Part of the reason is that courts are allowed to use this. They're allowed to use accusations of parental alienation.
Do you believe this placed you at further risk of violence?
As an Individual
Yes, 100%. Because of the accusations, I was forced to spend more time with my abuser. As a result, that directly placed me in a space where there was a higher risk of violence.
NDP
Leah Gazan NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
I appreciate that. I absolutely agree with you that it was a violation of your rights.
I know you cited the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. What can the federal government do right now to honour its obligation to this international convention so this doesn't happen to other folks in your situation?
As an Individual
Some lines that stand out to me from that UN report are that children have the right to give opinions freely and to have adults listen to them. I was not listened to. It also says that I have the right to protection from being hurt or mistreated in body or in mind, and I feel that I did not have that protection.
It also says that, if parents are divorced, you have a right to stay in contact with both unless it isn't best for you. It wasn't best for me, and yet I was consistently encouraged, by the therapists the court mandated me to see, to remain in contact and, like Witness 3 testified, to force affection. I was told that I had to tell my father that I loved him, that I had to hug him, etc.
NDP
Leah Gazan NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
I'm so sorry that you experienced that kind of abuse.
I have only 30 seconds left, so I will just say that I know you shared some really difficult testimony. I hope, through this study, when we're looking at coercive control, that we'll make sure we put forward recommendations that don't unintentionally place victims like you in greater harm.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Shelby Kramp-Neuman
Thank you.
We've completed our first round. We now begin the second round of questions from our members.
Dominique, I invite you to take the floor for five minutes.
Conservative
Dominique Vien Conservative Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC
Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
I'd like to thank our witnesses for such poignant testimony. Again, it's quite distressing for us. I don't know if my colleagues agree, but what we can take away today is that these young victims are not being heard or listened to.
In fact, a thought occurred to me. Today, at the age of 14, a person can see a doctor for specific services, which will be confidential. People will be considerate. However, if that same person speaks to a judge or a lawyer, they turn a deaf ear. At least, so I have gathered from our discussions thus far.
Ms. Illingworth, we've heard testimony from women who told us that if they had known the aftermath, they wouldn't have left the family home. We are talking about parental alienation, deprivation and false charges, for example. One of them told us about the economic problems she was experiencing.
Do you hear that kind of comment or observation from women who take refuge in your shelter, that the price for leaving the violent environment is even higher than the price for staying at home?
Executive Director, Ottawa Victim Services
Yes, absolutely, I've heard that and my staff have heard that. There are a lot of complaints around the criminal court system not sharing information with the family court system. When there are clear histories of abuse and violence being reported in the criminal system, the family system doesn't seem to take that into account: how serious that is and what a serious impact it has on children.
To continue to allow people who are accused of abuse to raise parental alienation is just ridiculous. It's so outdated and harmful, as you heard from the three witnesses today.
Conservative
Dominique Vien Conservative Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC
Thank you very much.
I would like to ask a question of Witness 2, who is so young—only 18 years old.
Welcome, and thank you for your testimony.
I have some rather technical questions to ask you about your experience, so that we have a clear understanding of what these therapies are, since you've seen them up close.
First, you said that you were in this situation with your sibling. Are you the younger one?
Conservative
Dominique Vien Conservative Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC
Thank you.
So your sibling has not reached the age of majority and may still be living in the same situation.
Can you explain to us how it was decided that you had to take these therapies, and for how long? How long did the separation from your mother last?
As an Individual
It was ordered by the court, and I had to go.
I started this process when I was 14, and I continued through this therapy until just before I turned 17.
Conservative
Dominique Vien Conservative Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC
When you were there—I assume you lived there and slept there—what kinds of conversations were you able to have with other children or teenagers who were there? Was everyone, or just about everyone, in the same situation?
As an Individual
Well, not exactly. I had to switch back and forth between both of my parents' houses, so they had divided parenting time.
The other victim I've spoken to attended one of the camps, where they were taken away from their parent. That was not my experience, so I cannot speak on their behalf in terms of—
Conservative
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Shelby Kramp-Neuman
Thank you very much, Dominique.
Emmanuella, you now have five minutes.
Liberal
Emmanuella Lambropoulos Liberal Saint-Laurent, QC
Thank you. I will be sharing my time with Ms. Hepfner.
I want to start by thanking the witnesses for being here and sharing their experiences with us today. I know it's very difficult to do so. It takes a lot of courage. I want to thank you for sharing everything with us today in order to better protect women in Canada.
I'm only going to ask one question, and then I'm going to pass it to my colleague.
My question would be for Witness 3. What was the justification the courts gave you to give full custody to your ex-partner and to allow him to decide when you would get to see your children?
As an Individual
We were in trial. I was forced to self-represent, as I couldn't get a lawyer. There were things brought up such as that I don't have pictures on my family room wall. I referred to him as “her father”. Text messages and emails from years prior were used against me. There was something that had occurred, and my daughter was refusing to go with him. Therefore, I had planted this story in her head—that's what the reunification therapist, her father's family and her father had told her.
Liberal
Emmanuella Lambropoulos Liberal Saint-Laurent, QC
I'm asking that question because I'm curious as to how parental alienation is used against mothers or fathers—whoever the victim is at that point—in order to say that they're manipulating a child into not wanting a relationship with the other parent, but then it's okay to have the child not have a relationship with the other parent once that's been done, that cut-off. The psychological damage that will occur after that is not considered.
That's what I find difficult and what I would like for this committee to work on, finding that balance. Why is it weighted so much heavier in one case and not in...? I don't know if I'm making sense, but I think you understand what I'm trying to say.