Evidence of meeting #122 for Status of Women in the 44th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was children.
A recording is available from Parliament.
As an Individual
I was asked very similar questions by both reunification therapists I saw and by the assessor I saw, all three of whom were, you know, advised by the court for me to see.
Conservative
Michelle Ferreri Conservative Peterborough—Kawartha, ON
You were a child; you were 14. Were you told, or do you know now, who chose these therapists? Was it your mom or your dad? Were they appointed? How were they decided on? Do you know?
Conservative
Michelle Ferreri Conservative Peterborough—Kawartha, ON
That's fair.
One of the things we see, and I'm sure everyone in this committee can attest to it, is that children are often used as leverage in a messy divorce, and it is abuse. There's no other word to really describe it other than that. The resentment or the personal feelings of the parents are taken out on the children, and they are left with the trauma and the pain. What you had to deal with is not fair. I think it's just important that you know that; adult problems are not your fault.
Is there anything you would recommend to this committee to ensure that children aren't used as leverage in divorce and in abusive relationships?
As an Individual
I think it's about understanding that another reason why that's the case is that the abusive parent knows that affecting the children, whom the other parent loves dearly, is another way to get to the non-abusive parent. Abusing the children is another way to abuse the non-abusive parent. I think believing children, listening to their ideas when they talk about abuse, listening to their experiences and, again, providing them with a children's lawyer and the support that they need throughout this process are highly important, too, because this is something that is obviously extremely traumatic.
Having additional supports like that.... When you're being told every time you go into these sessions that you're a liar, that you're defiant, that you have disordered thinking.... When you're told this constantly, even though you know your truth and you know your story, a part of you starts to believe it. I think it's important to have those resources that you can reach out to, like a children's lawyer, so that this does not affect your mental health in even worse ways than it already has.
Conservative
Liberal
Sonia Sidhu Liberal Brampton South, ON
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you to all the witnesses.
Thank you, Witness 2. You're helping other kids. I'm sorry you went through a lot, but thank you for your strength and for the courageous testimony that you're giving to us today.
We heard about the removal of reunification therapy. I think all witnesses have said that. I know that my colleagues were also talking about education and training, taking education and training initiatives to the justice system to empower school education. What do you think? Can you elaborate on what should be done?
I will start with Ms. Illingworth.
Executive Director, Ottawa Victim Services
I think there needs to be a lot of training for legal system actors around how children are often weaponized by abusers. This is all about controlling the mothers and maintaining control. A tactic that they use is trying to separate the mother from the children. This is a gendered form of abuse. We have to provide education around this to police, Crown attorneys, judges and everyone, including defence lawyers and people working in the family court systems, so that they understand how, in these situations, the mother and the child or children can be jointly abused.
I'll leave it there and let others answer as well.
Liberal
Sonia Sidhu Liberal Brampton South, ON
Can I get your feedback on the 2023 report of the UN special rapporteur, Reem Alsalem, on parental alienation? The report adds a victim-centred approach, and that is that the best interest of the child must take precedence over all other criteria. Do you agree with this recommendation, and how can this be established here in our family courts?
Witness 1 can answer that.
As an Individual
Are you asking what can be done in the family courts to help victims?
Liberal
Sonia Sidhu Liberal Brampton South, ON
Yes. Do you think the victim-centred approach is a good approach?
As an Individual
Absolutely, I think it's important.
I think the first misstep that happens, in the majority of these cases, is the lack of recognition from the outset that this is a case of abuse. Most of these cases get labelled as high conflict, where the assumption is that both parties are equally responsible for what's going on. The way to have a victim-centred approach would be to not.... I mean, all of us can be educated, but putting that education into action is what's really needed, so that, from the very beginning, every professional involved with these cases is supporting the victims and believing the victims, the women and children.
Liberal
Sonia Sidhu Liberal Brampton South, ON
Thank you.
I think Michelle talked about collecting data on coercive control. I know that, in Australia, it is incident-based and they collect the data so they are able to capture the ongoing nature of coercive control in everyday life. In your opinion, is it even possible to collect this data in a database? Earlier we heard about broadening the definition of abuse. What kind of definition are you looking for?
Any of the witnesses can answer that.
As an Individual
I think it has to be expanded, especially in this post-litigation scenario, to include all of the forms of post-litigation abuse that occur, whether it be undermining the mother, bankrupting her by continuing to bring her to court or using the children through alienation accusations and reunification therapy.
There are so many things that can be included, like financial abuse, spiritual abuse, isolation, monitoring and stalking. Again, it's very difficult to collect data on it. A lot of it is so nuanced and covert, so collected data has to show a pattern of abuse over time.
I feel like this issue is of some urgency in Canada, and I'm not sure how long a longitudinal study could go on for before we have the data. I feel like we know this exists already in Canada and across the world.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Shelby Kramp-Neuman
Thank you very much for sharing that.
Thank you, Sonia.
Next, we have Andréanne.
You have two and a half minutes.
Bloc
Andréanne Larouche Bloc Shefford, QC
Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
I looked at the Canadian Femicide Observatory for Justice and Accountability website, as it was mentioned during one of the rounds of questions. It says that 122 women and girls were killed by violence in 2024. That number is abhorrent. It means that, on average, a woman or girl is killed every two days somewhere in this country, mostly by men. In other words, on average, a woman is killed by her male partner once a week.
Those numbers are truly chilling.
The Observatory site raises, of course, the issue of coercive control legislation—we've already discussed that, Ms. Illingworth—but also, interestingly, the issue of public health. It would be good to offer a continuum of services to victims. The legislation makes it possible to recognize victims earlier, but also—perhaps afterwards—to allow them to receive support services from community groups or even within the health care system.
Ms. Illingworth, in your comments you touched on the issue of investment. Beyond the legislative side, you mentioned the need for enough investment and transfers, not only within the justice system to train judges, for example, but also in the health care system, to support victims.
Is that correct?
Executive Director, Ottawa Victim Services
I absolutely agree with you that a public health approach to violence is needed. We are seeing epidemic levels of intimate partner violence, and we need to take a coordinated and holistic approach to respond to it. We can't just make changes in the family law system and to the Criminal Code. We need to have robust social supports for survivors, including health care and all of the services they need to access in the aftermath, including emergency shelters and safe, affordable housing to rebuild their lives free from violence and in safe ways.
We need crisis intervention services to be better funded. We need mental health supports to help recovery, and we need legal aid so that we don't have situations like the one Witness 3 described where she couldn't be adequately represented. The consequences of that are so serious.
We need a continuum of care for survivors.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Shelby Kramp-Neuman
Thank you so much for sharing that.
Leah, you have two and a half minutes.
NDP
Leah Gazan NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
Thank you so much, Chair.
We've heard disturbing testimony today. I am just looking at the NAWL report. One concerning finding is that the situation in terms of parental accusations of parental alienations has in fact worsened. The report says:
“Parental alienation” is a controversial concept used in clinical and legal settings to describe children who refuse or resist contact with a parent. Despite its lack of scientific validity, this theory “has gained considerable traction and has been widely used to negate allegations of domestic and sexual abuse within family court systems on a global scale”.
I know that we spoke about getting rid of reunification therapy, but because parental alienation is still being allowed to be used, I'm also concerned that it's going to make victims of violence—without this step put in place, without getting rid of parental alienation—less likely to report abuse or pursue things legally to protect themselves and their children, if ultimately parental alienation will be used to further victimize victims of coercive control.
I'm wondering if Witness 1 could speak about it—and maybe, if we have time, Ms. Illingworth.
As an Individual
Are you asking me if I think that parental alienation should also be banned, in addition to the therapies?
NDP
Leah Gazan NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
No. I am asking whether, because it isn't banned right now, as a result it is causing reverse harm in terms of making victims less likely to report abuse.
As an Individual
Oh, absolutely, 100%. There are women who are even counselled by their lawyers not to raise abuse for fear that the reaction will be parental alienation allegations. A lot of women now.... I mean, I've thought about it in my own case. What would have happened had I not even raised it from the beginning? I think even children.... This is silencing women and children, and it's just going to continue as long as alienation is being favoured in the court system.
There's a great study out of the University of New Brunswick that looked at cases in Canada where both alienation and abuse were alleged. It shows that as soon as alienation is raised, the case goes in favour of the parent, most commonly the father, who accuses the mother of alienation.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Shelby Kramp-Neuman
Thank you for sharing that.
Ms. Vien, you have five minutes.
Conservative
Dominique Vien Conservative Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC
Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
I will continue with Witness 2.
I don't want us to part ways having only discussed the sad situations you've experienced, as that would leave us with a bitter taste. You're 18, you're young, though these events are still recent in your life.
How will you approach the next few years? Do you need counselling now? How are you regaining control of your life?
As an Individual
That's an interesting question. I think it's by doing what I'm doing exactly at this moment: relearning that I know my story, relearning that I know my truth and that I know what I went through, and speaking out about it for the young girls and young children who are still in the court system and cannot speak out.
Now that I'm 18, I think it's important to do that locally in my community. At my school, I did this, and now I have the opportunity, which I'm incredibly grateful for, to do it on a much larger scale. That has definitely helped me a lot in terms of controlling my life.