Status of Women Committee on April 5th, 2022

[Geneviève Lessard]

Absolutely, yes. In fact, we can't solve a problem this complex by adopting a simplistic solution. Changing the laws does offer tools, but that is not sufficient if we then don't help the people working in the field to work together to provide a safety net. Also, the tools can sometimes be poorly used.

Personally, I do a lot of work on coordination among the resources that provide help. In some regions of Quebec, crisis units have been set up in response to the "Rebâtir la confiance" report. That is really how we're going to manage to protect women and prevent femicide. We need the sometimes narrow vision of an expert to be expanded through the contribution made by another expert who comes from another practice area, who sees other dimensions and risk factors. By bringing everyone's knowledge together, we end up with a more coherent action, one that is more integrated and safer for the victims, and we really tackle the problem taking all needs into account.

We also have to tackle the people committing the violence. Apart from judicial measures, there has to be guidance. Otherwise, once the judicial measure ends, the danger will persist, if the person who exercised coercive control has not been given guidance. So a combination of measures is needed, both psychosocial and judicial, in order for change to take place.

I see that Ms. Larouche doesn't have a lot of speaking time left, so I'm going to allow her the few remaining seconds, in case she has other questions to ask.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

You talk about the "Rebâtir la confiance" report and the importance of raising awareness. On that point, I would like to mention that it was announced yesterday that Granby, which is in my riding, would be one of the towns participating in the pilot project for a court specializing in sexual or spousal violence. The federal government could therefore draw on that project to properly train participants and raise their awareness, to get them to recognize that a victim of spousal violence is not to be treated like just any other victim. There are differences and sensitivities that really have to be considered.

[Geneviève Lessard]

When a new measure is created, as in the case of the specialized court in Quebec, it is really important that we, as researchers, be able to support the process. Our researchers are involved in the process relating to these measures and are able to collaborate. They can study what happens and determine whether the project is going in the direction of the desired objectives. That could be our contribution, in terms of research.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Thank you very much.

We're now going to pass it over to Leah Gazan.

Leah, you have six minutes.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you so much, Chair, and thanks to all the witnesses for their testimony.

My first question is for Madame Lessard.

You spoke about coercive control. We often kind of bandy back and forth in this study about punishment versus rehabilitation for people who have exhibited violent behaviours. I'm of the mind that people certainly need to be held responsible for their behaviour, but penitentiaries are very anti-social and violent institutions. I feel that they're probably not the best places to assist people who have violent behaviours. In fact, we know there are very high recidivism rates.

I'm wondering if you could share your thoughts on that.

[Geneviève Lessard]

Coercive control is one of the most dangerous dynamics of violence, that is, dynamics that are potentially explosive and can endanger people's lives. Given this kind of dynamic of violence, more stringent and safer control measures have to be taken. For example, Quebec is in the process of setting up a tracking bracelet system. That is the kind of measure that is needed, when there is concern for people's lives, including the lives of aggressors who might have suicidal ideation. Coercive control is also connected with that. The aggressor may threaten to kill himself or may want to kill other people and then commit suicide.

We need to have a statutory tool that allows all coercive control to be punished. That would be a good thing, but this tool alone would not be sufficient. The aggressor will probably not remain in prison for their whole life. There are actually few cases in which people have generalized antisocial behaviour and exercise coercive control in all their relationships, both at home and at school or elsewhere. Often, their partner is the one over whom people exercise coercive control. That proves that these aggressors are able to control their behaviour. If they don't exercise coercive control in some relationships but they do over their partner, that means they are capable of controlling their behaviour, and accordingly, they can change it. Rehabilitation measures must therefore also be taken.

Why is rehabilitation important? To ensure the safety of the former spouse and the children in the medium and long term. In cases where the former spouses are parents, it is very rare for them to completely lose their right of access to their children. When the woman has a child, she will have to stay in contact with the child's father, whether she wants to or not, even if coercive control was exercised after the separation. So there have to be safer measures in this situation.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

I'm sorry. I have limited time.

I really appreciate that response, because I absolutely respect how dangerous coercive control is, and that there needs to be a balanced approach. It's hard to teach prosocial behaviours in an anti-social environment. That's what my concern is.

I was also taken by the fact that you talked about how mental health supports for individuals stop at 18. This is true. Prior to 18, if you're having difficulty, a lot of supports often can be provided, for example through schools. They'll provide kids with supports, but then you turn 18 and all the supports stop. There doesn't seem to be a focus on funding proper mental health care for people dealing with complex mental health and trauma, including complex mental health and trauma that come out of witnessing family violence.

Can you speak to the importance of targeted funding and programs for people recovering from trauma related to family violence?

[Geneviève Lessard]

I do think there is a huge gap in the services offered for young adults. Young adults who need help have to pay out of pocket for specialized services, when, as I mentioned earlier, they have fewer resources than most other young people. I don't want to generalize, but I would say that a majority of these young people have no family network to support them financially. It is therefore very important to provide them with more services.

These services could be offered in workplaces where a majority of employees are young people, such as food services or hotels. If there were employee assistance programs aimed primarily for young people having problems related to a personal trauma, I think that would meet a need. Let's say that waiting lists for these kinds of services would fill up pretty fast.

With that said, two of my student have created a new organization in Quebec City called VIVA Jeunesse, for young people of any age who have experienced bullying or spousal violence. It may be that we will soon be seeing new organizations of this type, at least I hope so.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

I had the privilege of visiting VIVA Jeunesse the other weekend. It is a pretty amazing support.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Leah, before you get another question in here, your time is done. I'm sorry about that.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Okay. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

We'll get you back for your [Technical difficulty—Editor].

We only have about 12 minutes left for the panel, so I'm going to divide the time into four minutes for the CPC and the Liberals, and two minutes for the NDP and the Bloc.

I'm going to pass the floor over to Dominique.

Dominique, you have four minutes.

[Dominique Vien, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

It's a bit frustrating, because I had a lot of questions for Ms. Lessard. We could have heard more discussion about young people.

Ms. Lessard, I hope we will be able to follow up with you and you will be able to send us more information about the very promising initiatives with young people. We are also very interested in problematic intimate relationships among young people.

I'm going to take the liberty of addressing Ms. Montminy by her first name, because I have known her for 30 years.

So hello, Marjolaine. Welcome to this committee. We are very pleased to have heard from you today.

I am familiar with the rural community of Bellechasse. Our situation is the same more or less everywhere in Canada in rural communities. For example, people live far away from one another. We also see that there are no or very few front line services. In addition, transportation services are more or less nonexistent, for reasons that are very easy to understand: there are huge distances and very few people, and costs would be high, among other things. With that said, you did say that it was still possible to find solutions.

What solutions that are very promising and easy to put in place could be exported to rural communities elsewhere in Quebec, but also in Canada?

[Marjolaine Montminy]

First, we have to offer Internet access at an affordable cost, because that is a major shortcoming.

For two years, all activities at the Centre-Femmes de Bellechasse, as at a majority of community organizations, have taken place via Zoom. So when the women we want to help don't have the $55 a month to pay for an Internet connection, it is difficult to contact them. They are very far away from us. When they leave a spousal violence situation and go to a shelter, it is often us who then go and get them. That is the method we have used for two years to go out and meet our clients. These women have told me multiple times that they had no money to pay for an Internet connection. So we referred them to an organization that could lend them a computer. That is how we have managed.

Internet access needs to be unlimited and capped at $20 per month. When you are receiving a social assistance cheque for about $800 per month, a charge of $55 to access the Internet is an enormous cost.

If they use their phone to access the Internet, that uses up all their mobile data, and at the end of the month they have no minutes left and they can't call anyone. That doesn't work. Something really has to be done about this.

As well, we really have to work hard on holding the perpetrators of violence accountable. There are some 180 recommendations in "Rebâtir la confiance"...

[Dominique Vien, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

Exactly, Ms. Lessard talked earlier about "Rebâtir la confiance" and the crisis units that were created when that report came out.

How are these crisis units organized? Can they play a role? Could they be promising approaches for Bellechasse or other rural regions to take?

[Marjolaine Montminy]

Yes, we are in the process of setting them up.

Following the horrific incident experienced by Vickie Langlois, I asked her what I could have done for her, as the director of a women's centre, and she told me there had to be crisis units. I get emotional when I talk about it. So we are working on it. The project is progressing. We have received funding and we are in the process of setting up crisis units everywhere in Quebec. It's going to be extraordinary.

The tracking bracelets may be useful, but only when the Internet is working. This is a device that works on the network: you get a phone alert if the other person is somewhere around the house. So if I live on the Trois-Pistoles concession road and I have no Internet access, it doesn't work. That is one aspect to consider.

Police have also been designated who will be dedicated to spousal violence situations. They are taking training for this. This is new...

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Marjolaine, I'm sorry, but I have to cut you off. I know you have such great expertise on this, but we have others who want to ask questions.

I'm going to pass it over, for the next four minutes, to Emmanuella.

Emmanuella, you have four minutes.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

A big thanks to the witnesses for being here today to answer our questions.

My first questions are for Ms. Lessard.

You spoke a lot about young women who are victims of violence, since your recent studies focus on that subject.

I would like to know whether there is a great disparity among those women, between those who have a postsecondary education and those who don't. You talked about introducing this kind of program in the workplace, but you didn't talk about universities or cégeps.

[Geneviève Lessard]

Thank you for the question. However, there is a part of the question that I won't be able to answer, because my research didn't deal with women victims of spousal violence, but rather with children and adolescents exposed to that type of violence.

Our sample did include a lot of university students. We recruited participants from various places, including Kijiji and Facebook, and also through community organizations that work with youth. We found that we got a lot of responses from students in cégeps and universities.

You're right that it is important to include colleges and universities in the support measures. There are some programs on university campuses, in the form of help for students experiencing a variety of problems. At present, those services are completely overwhelmed. Even where I am, at Laval University, we have had to add resources to deal with the high volume of requests from students on the waiting list. These aren't just spousal violence cases, but all sorts of problems.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

You also said that the pandemic had shown the importance of joining together to create social innovations. Could you tell us more about this and explain how the government can support projects like these?

[Geneviève Lessard]

I think the pandemic will have brought about some practical transformations. For example, in a place like the one where Ms. Montminy works, it is very important to offer certain services online, not just now, but also when the pandemic is over. These services may benefit people who can't travel, people who have a disability, or people for whom it is hard to get to a group meeting.

I think we will have to closely monitor the way the services are transformed and reorganized during the pandemic and especially afterward, to see what type of therapy is effective, for one thing.

For example, at our research centre, a researcher who specializes in psychology offers online therapy for people who have been traumatized, for victims of sexual or spousal violence. Her preliminary research has produced very encouraging results in terms of the effectiveness of the treatment.

These are new ways of working that we can explore further, that might even be used for helping young people, who are much more focused than us on technology. Online services could therefore be an avenue for the future.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

Excellent, thank you.

Thanks to all the witnesses.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Thanks so much, Emmanuella.

We're now going to turn it over for two minutes to Andréanne.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Ms. Lessard, we are trying to find concrete solutions to the problem of violence against women and spousal violence. You were talking about different treatments and the need to get off the beaten path.

Are there ways of preventing this violence? Are there other initiatives that inspire you? I'm thinking, in particular, of telephone hotlines for victims and other somewhat different models that would make it possible to defuse a situation before it degenerates and explodes.

[Geneviève Lessard]

Collectively, we have to change and expand our language. It takes time and it takes pretty serious episodes of violence before a person acknowledges and says that she is, in fact, a victim of spousal violence. Before getting there, the person will say that things aren't going well in her relationship and she has tried everything to resolve the situation. Instead of describing herself as a victim, she will use other words.

So I urge everyone who is working in the field to take a step back and ask themself what other prevention strategies could be used to reach out to these people before they start to fear for their lives.