Status of Women Committee on Nov. 6th, 2024

[Dominique Vien, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

You are familiar with this work and you know what you are doing. How do you measure the success of your outreach with these children? Your goal is for these young boys to develop positive masculinity and become full-fledged citizens who respect women. Do you feel that many of them pull through as a result of your outreach? How successful do you think your approach is for how they later behave?

[Manon Monastesse]

It's hard to say, because emergency shelter stays are shorter.

That said, studies have been conducted on the issue of children who have been exposed to domestic violence. For example, Simon Lapierre from the University of Ottawa has conducted a number of studies on the consequences of domestic violence on young children. In his research, he gave voice to children. It's interesting how, as survivors, they understand what violence is. As we have made very clear, being violent is a choice. Studies tend to show that experiencing violence at a young age doesn't doom these children. They don't necessarily become abusive men.

[The Chair, Conservative, Shelby Kramp-Neuman]

Thank you.

Next, we have MP Serré.

You have the floor for five minutes.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I, too, would like to give my heartfelt thanks to the witnesses. They shared their observations on an extremely difficult issue. Their expertise and recommendations will help us a great deal. I hope that many judges, Crown attorneys and justices of the peace have listened to the testimony we've heard over the past few weeks. Changes are urgently needed, because the situation is dire.

I would like to address Ms. Monastesse, Ms. St‑Pierre Gaudreault and Ms. Jeanson. I'm going to continue along the same lines as my colleague Dominique Vien in terms of support. The situation is genuinely dire when it comes to prevention services and the measures that need to be put in place to help men.

In no way do I want to diminish the importance of women's shelter services and the support that must be provided to women. It is very important. That said, the only solution for men right now seems to be sending them to prison. We know that doesn't work. In many cases, they don't even go to prison.

Ms. Monastesse, you said that Ontario had put a framework in place. Would you be able to send any materials on that framework to the committee? Should we consider applying such a framework across the country?

[Manon Monastesse]

Yes, absolutely.

In terms of accountability, there is even a program for fathers who engage in violent behaviour. It's called the Caring Dads program. It's very effective, because it really focuses on accountability and how violent behaviour impacts children. The goal of the program is to change fathers' parenting skills so that they become responsible, non-violent fathers.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Thank you for mentioning the issue of children. I think Crown prosecutors are not adequately supporting children. That should be studied.

Ms. Jeanson, you talked a lot about therapy for men. Do you have any other specific recommendations for the federal government?

As you know, the national action plan to end gender-based violence, which was developed by the federal government and signed by all 10 provinces and three territories, will be reported on in December. Under the plan, 25% of the funding allocated, a total of $125 million, must be spent on prevention.

Do you think treatment centres for men should be tried out?

[Madam Martine Jeanson]

I say yes, absolutely. We teach them accountability, as Ms. Monastesse said, but we also listen to what they have experienced to understand the why and how.

Prevention in schools is also important. Young people today are not educated about violence, and they see a lot of it around them. They see people in street gangs, for example. In many cases, people are violent out of fear; violence is a self-defence mechanism. Often, as they grow up, young people adopt violent behaviours to look cool, but these are not the right tools. I believe that, by building people's self-esteem, we free them from racism, aggression and many other problems. When we build strong human beings, they don't need to destroy others.

We have to work on both fronts.

However, according to the research I've done everywhere, there are currently no therapies available to men. I'm not talking about little workshops once a week. I'm talking about therapy that men have to undergo in closed custody. Believe me, if you put a bunch of violent men together, their behaviours will come out. Their egos and control issues will emerge, among other things, and the people there will be able to work on those behaviours. I still think that's the best way to go.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Ms. Jeanson, I have about 45 seconds left and I would like to address another aspect.

Personally, I am a hunter. I have a licence for possession and acquisition of firearms, and I have guns at home.

Based on your experience, do you think guns that are stored at home are a problem, given that, in a considerable number of cases, guns are the weapons used against women?

[Madam Martine Jeanson]

There is no doubt about that. However, whether with a gun or a knife, a man who wants to kill someone will find a way to do so.

[Manon Monastesse]

I would say that it is actually a problem. Since the firearms registry was eliminated in the country, we have seen an increase in gun use. Of course, if we leave—

[The Chair, Conservative, Shelby Kramp-Neuman]

Thank you.

MP Dancho, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you again to the witnesses for their testimony.

I appreciate the commentary from members of Parliament today and the responses that we're getting.

I do agree—and we've heard this from witnesses on this study and on others—that there needs to be a lot of focus put on rehabilitation and therapy. I very much agree that if we're going to break a cycle of violence, we certainly need those supports, and they are severely lacking.

I believe Ms. Gazan mentioned that penitentiaries are, in essence.... Excuse my language, but it's the best way I can describe what I've seen: They can be hellholes. They are very difficult places to be, and that stays with you for the rest of the day after you visit them.

What I struggle with is the idea of perpetual abusers. I believe it was Ms. Jeanson who mentioned that the man who abused her abused 10 women. We know that there are perpetual child sex abusers. I personally have a very difficult time believing that it is okay in a society to send those individuals directly to receive therapy. They should go spend some time in hell for a few years, in my opinion. Certainly the worst of the worst deserve that.

What I see happening in this country, through various criminal justice bills, is a weakening of that idea. The justice system for victims doesn't seem to be the priority. Sometimes very bad men who do vile things to many women and children need to go to jail, and that doesn't seem to be necessarily the default anymore in some cases. It's very upsetting to open a paper and see that some man who sexually abused many children is out after five years. I think that's a grave injustice to victims, and they live with that for a number of years.

I just wanted to mention that and get the perspective of Ms. Singh.

Do you have any thoughts to add to that, Ms. Singh?

[Sunder Singh]

My mind is racing. There's so much that I want to talk about.

Yesterday, we had to see a case of a young child who had been sexually abused by the father. She is now six years old. The mother was abused by her husband. She saw the child naked on the bed and saw him with only his underwear on, and he beat her up when she witnessed it.

Anyway, she's now separated and she has the six-year-old child with her now. She is fighting like hell to keep the child. He has hired a private lawyer. He can afford it, but she was financially abused, so she can't afford a lawyer. This lawyer is actively fighting for the custody of this six-year-old girl who will end up with the father. She's panicking and she's just talking non-stop and is completely emotionally disturbed that that child will be taken away from her. What do you do in a case like that?

We've tried to address the preventive measures and what we need to do. School education is so very important, but people who are immigrants and newcomers are coming, and they're bringing their culture with them, and the children are affected and the women are affected.

This case yesterday is not the only one that we've seen. We've seen cases before as well when the child has been sexually abused, and the child is talking. She's saying on the video, “This is what dad did to me.” When I call the police, the police have closed the file because they're saying there's no evidence. Good Lord! You know, this woman is—

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

I'm sorry to interrupt, but I just wanted to add to what you're saying.

I actually recently visited a centre in Manitoba called the Toba Centre, and it specializes in exactly what you're talking about. They do wraparound services for children who have been abused, particularly child victims of sexual abuse. They bring together.... Actually, there's been a discussion today about how silos between police and social services and shelters are really a problem. This centre really acts as the hub to bring in police, who often don't necessarily have the training on how to deal with a child who's young and can perhaps barely talk about or barely even understand what's happened to them. It's just a phenomenally safe place for children who have seen things that no one deserves to see.

To your point, it's just that those resources for families are severely lacking. The Toba Centre, for example, follows that child through the process to protect them from having to repeat their story over and over to people who are not necessarily trained to deal with this.

Anyway, I just wanted to mention that because I agree that there's a need for them.

[The Chair, Conservative, Shelby Kramp-Neuman]

Thank you, Raquel. Unfortunately, I don't have an opportunity to provide any space.

MP Damoff, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you.

Dr. Buffalo, I know you have to leave in a couple of minutes, so I'm going to start with you.

You mentioned 86% of femicides are indigenous in Yukon. Is that right?

[Dr. Amanda Buffalo]

It was just in that seven-year period. Yes.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

One thing we hear about a lot is throwing people into jail. I can recall a case—and it wasn't in Yukon, but I believe in Nunavut—of an indigenous woman who called the police because she was being abused, and she was also arrested because she was breaching probation because she'd been drinking.

Then there was another situation of an indigenous woman who went to the police to report sexual assault. The judge was worried about her showing up for trial, so he put her in jail, and she ended up having to share a van with the accused to go to court.

How do we ensure that indigenous women who may be worried about being arrested for something like a breach of probation feel safe calling the police?

[Dr. Amanda Buffalo]

I do have to leave soon, and that's a long answer.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Listen, do you know what? If it's a longer answer than you have time for, you can send in something in writing, if you don't mind, and then we can include it.

[Dr. Amanda Buffalo]

I do want to touch on it, because it happens all the time, and it happens particularly in communities that are small, northern, rural, isolated, remote and indigenous.

It's a lack of resources. It's because we don't have enough bodies in the community. We keep getting money for program dollars, but then the program dollars dry up, and we go from having eight people to one person, so there aren't more people in the community to be able to do that kind of support. Then continuity becomes really important when we're trying to address these issues in smaller communities.

You said something about this idea of putting somebody in jail and the policing of indigenous women's bodies. I do also want to speak to that. We know that indigenous women are more policed than other people, more than indigenous people in general are in Canada. One of the things I'll offer before I have to leave is that there's been a lot of talk about punishment and throwing people in jail and what that looks like.

Punishment and accountability are two different concepts. One really invites the opportunity for someone to be accountable and rehabilitate their life, and the other just says that they're a horrible person who gets thrown away. This kind of culture of disposability isn't working either way. It's not working for any of us—men, women, any of our children, any of the future generations.

Instead of punishing, we need to rethink ways to invite accountability into our conversations so that people can take that step to rehabilitation and make the changes in their own world and in the way that they're choosing to treat other people.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you.

Ms. Young, thank you so much for being here. You were talking about how you have the highest rate of—I can't remember—was it femicides in Alberta?

[Jill Young]

It was intimate partner violence.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

It was intimate partner violence.

For how many women coming into your shelter has a firearm been used as a threat or been involved in that intimate partner violence?

[Jill Young]

I don't have the direct statistics on those cases specifically, but what we see in Lethbridge is a combination of both rural and urban dynamics. We are surrounded by a huge farming community where firearms are available widely through that farming community. We have stigma that is absolutely there.

It's a smaller community. We're about 100,000 people. Everybody knows your name. We have those pieces. When it comes to isolation, even if those guns aren't specifically used on them in a form of violence, there's still the threat of violence. I think that's also really important, because that is a psychological threat that is there. It's very impactful on the individual in making that decision on whether they need to leave or have the capacity to leave.