Evidence of meeting #137 for Status of Women in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was kids.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Michelle Ferreri Conservative Peterborough—Kawartha, ON
Yes.
I guess I'm curious; as we're studying the rise in hate crimes in particular against 2SLGBTQI communities, where does Canada rank?
Mr. Jensen, are we sitting at the top? Do you know that number?
Director of Legal, Egale Canada
Where does Canada rank internationally...?
Conservative
Director of Legal, Egale Canada
As one of my fellow witnesses testified, there are many places on the planet where it is illegal to be gay or trans. If the point is that we're doing better than some other countries, that's a fair point. I think—
Conservative
Michelle Ferreri Conservative Peterborough—Kawartha, ON
I guess I would ask about countries where there is freedom comparable to that in Canada. I guess what I'm asking about in particular is hate crimes in countries where there is freedom and it's clear that gay marriage is legal, if that makes sense. Does that make sense?
Director of Legal, Egale Canada
I think so, but I would again point to the statistic that my fellow witness noted, which is that we're experiencing a 388% increase in hate crimes in this country.
Also, if I may say, Madam Chair, I do have evidence that I can share on your first question. We're filing that in court in the coming week, and we'll be able to pass it along to this committee as well.
Conservative
Michelle Ferreri Conservative Peterborough—Kawartha, ON
That would be super helpful. I appreciate it.
It's an interesting conversation, because.... Before this committee meeting, I was speaking with one of my friends who is trans and I was taking direction from them.
I also watched the documentary Will & Harper. I'm not sure if you guys are familiar with this, but Will & Harper is a great documentary by Will Ferrell about his friend Andy who transitioned to "Harper", and they did a cross-country tour in the States. It was very profound, because there's certainly a piece of the puzzle where people aren't bigots but don't know how to ask questions, and how do you start that conversation when everyone's afraid? There was one part in that documentary where they go into a bar. Harper goes into the bar on her own, and you're kind of like holding your breath, and the minute the conversation really starts and everybody's comfortable was really amazing. I think that's a lot of the piece of the puzzle, going back to Mr. Lamrock's point about left-handedness or understanding what a lot of people don't know, so I think that's key.
The other thing I want to touch on is mental health. I recently visited my hospital, and a lot of this is provincial. We had a study in this committee on the mental health of young children. There's an 18-month wait list to see a psychiatrist in this country. Ten million Canadians don't even have access to a doctor, and this is critical. You know, I get phone calls from parents whose kids are really struggling, and they don't know where they fit, who they are or which direction they're going in, and they can't get help.
Mr. Jensen or Mr. Lamrock from a provincial legislature's perspective, where would you like to see the federal government go to ensure more access to doctors? Most of psychiatry, even in my own hospital, isn't covered under OHIP, which is in Ontario. It's not like that. I guess I would ask that question, if either Mr. Jensen or Mr. Lambert wants to answer. I'm sorry that there's only a minute left.
Child and Youth Advocate, Government of New Brunswick
I can offer two quick thoughts, and Mr. Jensen may add to them.
One thought is that there is a national role for coordinating the response. In the 1990s, there was a conscious decision by provincial governments that we could save money by reducing the number of health professionals and spots for training. The idea was that, if we're going to have free health services, at least you restrict the number of billing numbers, restrict the number of entry points. It's a little like controlling an open bar by reducing the number of bartenders to slow things down.
We don't have a recruitment problem; we have a training problem because, if there were recruitment, there'd be a jurisdiction with too many. The national government needs a national training standard and a strategy about where we train.
One other thing is that I would echo is the call that one of the other witnesses made for the federal government. Part of the problem—I don't want to pathologize it—is that it isn't always a mental health issue, but sometimes about needing to be left alone.
I'd love to talk about algorithmic reform on social media and mandatory disclosure of algorithms that steer people towards more extremist content.
Conservative
Michelle Ferreri Conservative Peterborough—Kawartha, ON
I wish I could get to social media. That was my next line of questioning, for sure.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Shelby Kramp-Neuman
You'll probably have another opportunity at some point, Michelle.
Child and Youth Advocate, Government of New Brunswick
I'd love to talk off-line.
Conservative
Liberal
Lisa Hepfner Liberal Hamilton Mountain, ON
Thank you, Chair.
Thank you so much to our witnesses for being here today. This is a really important conversation.
Some of us, Andréanne, Leah and I, were at the launch of The Jackie Shane Story here on Parliament Hill just last week, and I can tell you I haven't been able to get those images and that story out of my mind. Imagine a transgender lounge singer in the 1960s trying to make it work.
In the mid-2000s, I was a journalist at CHCH, and I got to know a trans woman quite well. She nominated me for a woman of distinction award because I was one of the few people who treated her like a human, and I know that you brought that up today, too, Fae.
That really moved me, and I ended up going with her to Montreal to do a documentary, a three-part series, on her transition, and I spoke to other trans people having surgery there. What I learned from them and from the doctors was that it wasn't cosmetic; it was life-saving surgery. This was surgery that was literally saving people's lives, and you could tell that the doctors were passionate about it. It was the only place in Canada at the time where you could get the surgery.
That was really important and then, after that period, I felt like our society was starting to accept trans people more, and we started to move towards this openness and acceptance, and now suddenly we're back. We just heard from CSIS last week, which warned us about increasing violence against trans people in particular.
Fae, I haven't really asked a question, but can you comment on that trajectory and where we find ourselves from the 1960s to 2024 going backwards?
Executive Director, Society of Queer Momentum
It is indeed the case. I'm concerned that we are headed backwards, and my worry right now is that I don't know how far backwards that goes.
Just yesterday I opened my phone and looked at a story in America where two trans people were assaulted out of nowhere—I think it was in Missouri—simply for being themselves. A crowd around them cheered on the assault.
Again, I'm 29 years old. I grew up when Ontario was going through the fight to protect gender and sexuality or gay-straight alliances in our schools. I remember when sexual diversity was a new thing, something that we were still trying to understand, though I'm not old enough to know the worst days prior to marriage equality.
However, I think we have seen this evolution where we've accepted a greater range of diversity when it comes to gender and sexuality. I think the concerning piece now is that, indeed, social media has furthered that polarization. To Ms. Ferreri's point, I think it has made it harder for us to have these conversations and to see the everyday experiences.
I just got back from six weeks travelling to six provinces and seven cities. I was chatting with factory workers, farmers, and dock workers in P.E.I., Newfoundland and B.C. Lots of them had never met a trans person. I loved going up and saying, “I am very new to you.” I was on stages, and my opening joke was something to the effect of betting that they weren't expecting to see a 5’11”, deep-voiced trans lady on stage talking to them about gay stuff. My favourite thing is that they can see, when you sit down and and have a beer and a conversation, that it comes back to fundamental realities—human beings are human beings regardless of how they look.
I grew up as a hockey player and a child of two military parents. There's nothing I love more than hanging out at a dive bar, chatting with somebody who is very confused about my gender. Then we move on to sports, and I get very confused about the sports, and then we just keep on going. This is part of what makes Canada an incredible country when we can see that shared humanity.
However, it's dangerous when we see that diversity turned into a bad thing. I think that is what's happening today. It is something that, indeed, some are aiding and abetting, but is also being pushed by groups that have always wanted a Canada where people like me are not invited into spaces like this. It's those same folks who opposed marriage equality, who opposed civil rights for LGBTQI+ people, who voted against banning conversion practices. All of those folks are getting louder and emboldened in this environment.
Liberal
Lisa Hepfner Liberal Hamilton Mountain, ON
We're hearing, even in this Parliament, in this day and age, Conservative members saying they would vote down gay marriage today. We have the Leader of the Opposition blaming Justin Trudeau for radical gender ideology.
Liberal
Lisa Hepfner Liberal Hamilton Mountain, ON
I'm sorry for the interruptions from across the table, but I think your point is well made.
Now, you've turned to litigation against some of these provinces. I was in Alberta for pride...last summer. That community was really scared about that legislation.
Maybe I'll turn to you, Bennett, because you're the expert on this. Why is litigation the right move at this point?
Director of Legal, Egale Canada
I can't emphasize enough how much I wish I didn't have to litigate. I would love to not be litigating, and I will answer your question directly in a moment.
However, I also think, again, back to Ms. Ferreri's comments, which I think so nailed the issue on the head. So much of my work is also thinking about how we can take down the temperature and have conversations where we're not so polarized and we return to humanity. As I said in my opening remarks, it makes sense if you have questions about what it means to have a trans kid, if you've never met a trans kid or a parent of a trans kid.
I think the important part—and how I get back to litigation—is that we take a beat. We listen to experts like Mr. Lamrock, like the medical experts who aren't new at this, even if some of us may feel new at it, and we just take down the temperature before acting.
I'm sneaking in other answers here too. I think there are definitely health care access issues that exist. Although I would echo what Mr. Lamrock said, that psychiatrists in particular aren't necessary, barring other mental health challenges—
Conservative
Bloc
Andréanne Larouche Bloc Shefford, QC
Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
I thank the four witnesses for joining us today.
I've been taking a lot of notes since the beginning of this meeting.
I'll try to focus on finding solutions. The statistics are striking. Hate crimes against trans people have been on the rise. I watched the documentary Lisa mentioned. It's interesting to see how things are evolving and to compare the eras. Some things are moving forward and some are moving backward.
Though this study, we're trying to better understand the increase of these hate crimes against communities and find solutions.
Mr. Testaouni, many people have brought up the fact that social media and artificial intelligence are contributing to this situation. However, they also have an impact on violence against women. We've seen that since the emergence of misogynistic movements and groups. I watched the documentary on École Polytechnique and incels. I get the impression that it's more or less the same thing for those communities.
Let's focus on finding solutions. What could we do? Should legislation be passed to regulate online hate speech?
Chief Executive Officer, QueerTech
I just want to remind everyone of a report written by the Dais at Toronto Metropolitan University. In that report, they showed that 72% of the LGBT community was exposed to online violence and that 27% of those people were personally attacked. The statistics are still very high.
Artificial intelligence has greatly contributed to increasing these percentages, as algorithms strongly foster engagement on those platforms. What we need are policies aimed at countering discrimination and promoting transparency when it comes to moderation on those platforms.
Today, we know that artificial intelligence is also being used to moderate comments on these platforms. The problem is that AI doesn't always recognize online violence or hate. Artificial intelligence doesn't recognize nuances.
Greater transparency and policy development to address online violence are needed. We're willing to work with everyone to create those laws.
Bloc
Andréanne Larouche Bloc Shefford, QC
We obviously understand that freedom of expression is not curtailed when hateful rhetoric is denounced. However, there has to be a limit, which is always difficult to set in this kind of legislation. We're well aware of that.
I'd like to go back to AI now. I'm asked a lot of questions about the impact of violence in a context where AI is being used more and more. Sometimes it's a matter of fake news. This morning, I watched a report on false pornographic images and other misinformation circulating in the communities. The impact is apparently very real.
Could you tell us more about that?
You said that algorithms are being used to try to control what is said online.
What could be the solution when it comes to using artificial intelligence?
Chief Executive Officer, QueerTech
The first solution would be to look at how to create transparency when it comes to moderation on these platforms. I think the government and this committee should create very clear definitions of what constitutes hate so that this content can also be moderated on those platforms. We need transparency about the moderation.
Another possibility is to create a system to help victims of attacks report them easily. We also need to get the relevant statistics from those platforms so that we are aware of these situations.
Government, corporations and organizations like ours need to work very hard together to create online outreach programs. Our young people need to be able to recognize this phenomenon and know what action they can take.