Status of Women Committee on Dec. 9th, 2024

[Naoufel Testaouni]

We know that there is a lot of artificial intelligence that's at play here, and there are lot of deepfakes and things that are created, and we need to regulate that. There are laws that we need to pass to make sure that all this content that's getting created by artificial intelligence is regulated and moderated.

[The Chair, Conservative, Shelby Kramp-Neuman]

Thank you.

Andréanne Larouche, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

It's too bad that our fourth witness is no longer with us.

I believe it was you, Ms. Johnstone, who mentioned the issue of conversion therapy. I was more or less surprised to hear that it would always be there. You talked about an increase, if I understood correctly, despite the federal legislation.

Is that happening because groups are finding ways to get around the law and successfully perpetuate conversion therapy, in the name of religious principles?

Did I understand correctly?

[Fae Johnstone]

Thank you for the question. I hope to be able to answer in French at some point.

What I would say is—and this is my concern from the early days of the conversion therapy legislation—that I applaud the decision of the House to pass this legislation and, indeed, would applaud the Conservative Party for voting in favour—

[The Chair, Conservative, Shelby Kramp-Neuman]

We have, seemingly, lost the interpretation.

I will continue to speak in English and wait to see when the French interpretation will kick in.

Okay. We're good.

I'll watch the clock, and you can continue.

[Fae Johnstone]

I would say when Canada and the House of Commons passed the ban on conversion practice, I was very pleased, including to see the Conservative Party, and all parties I believe, pass this legislation. We were shocked. We were waiting for a fight, and then we didn't have to have one. It was hurtful to watch some of the commentary that played out in the earlier iterations of that bill.

My worry from the get-go—and with love to Liberal and New Democratic members—is that these things become symbols, and then they become symbols sometimes that we can use to make other parties look bad. My worry from the first of this was that conversion practice is an insidious, systemic issue. It is a practice that is hard to report, because if you're coming from a religiously conservative family, your ability to bring forward a report.... Police haven't received training on conversion practices in this country. Counsellors and therapists have received very little support. We saw a little bit of funding from the justice department, I believe, to help address some of that public legal education information, but it was a pittance compared to what's needed.

If we want to address conversion practice, we first have to understand the broader picture, which is that these practices exist in societies that have hostility toward gender diversity and sexual diversity. Then second, we have to recognize that we must listen to survivors and those who have been doing the work to address conversion practice, including organizations like the Community-Based Research Centre, which works on queer health. It's about supporting those organizations to explore, investigate and address these practices.

Unfortunately, after the legislation, much of the country moved on. It was the same issue when we saw trans rights legislation. Passing of legislation in the House of Commons does not eradicate hate, nor does it address a systemic issue that is causing deep harm in our communities. The way that we move forward is by working, through a whole-of-government approach, alongside civil society, faith leaders and medical professionals to understand and implement a strategy to address these critical issues, aside from just the moments that are important symbolically, but that are ineffective at truly addressing a complex issue.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Shelby Kramp-Neuman]

Thank you.

MP Gazan, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

I just want to say quickly that I also commend every member of this committee for participating. I know it's not an easy study.

I agree with you. You just spoke about the politicization, and I think we do that in different ways here—fighting the good fight.... I know that my online nickname now used by online extremists is made up of pronouns, because I use gender-neutral language, which I'm very proud of.

I want to ask you a question, Mr. Testaouni. You told a personal story. I was really touched by that. When I was young, I was kind of a high school reject, and the other rejects were part of the LGBTQ community. We all hung around together, and some of them made it and some of them didn't. The hate was great.

Why is it important to allow children to identify who they are, especially when they come from families where they have difficulty? Maybe they are being kicked out of the house, and the only safe place they have is school. Why is it important to allow children to identify who they are in schools?

[Naoufel Testaouni]

It's because school is where we learn. Therefore, for them it's an opportunity to learn about these topics, learn about themselves and engage with the teacher in a conversation where they can also teach them and and explain what's going on for them. When that doesn't happen, then misinformation and disinformation take over and, as we see, it can be fatal to these kids and their lives.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Yes. I think of the many friends I had as a young person who identified who they were at home and ended up getting kicked out. The only place they had safety—so that they didn't become hard to house later on, because they had nowhere to go as kids—was the school.

Why is it important? I am worried about our charter and the misuse of the notwithstanding clause for political purposes, and the risk that it will have for kids. What can we do as legislators to really stand firm to protect our Canadian charter, especially around kids' rights?

[The Chair, Conservative, Shelby Kramp-Neuman]

MP Gazan, I've already been a little generous with your time.

If you could answer that in 25 seconds or less, that would be great.

[Bennett Jensen]

I think all parties could commit to not using it, period.

A quick answer to your previous point is that there's a lot of evidence showing that a single protective, supportive adult can be the difference between making it to adulthood or not for kids. We know all parents want what's best for their kids, and the majority will be able to love their kids through anything, but that's not everyone. For those kids, having access to a supportive teacher can mean life or death.

[The Chair, Conservative, Shelby Kramp-Neuman]

Thank you.

Mrs. Vien, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Dominique Vien, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'm pleased to see that we're able to have this conversation today. We don't understand everything, but we do agree on some points. I think it's important to open the discussion.

I agree with Mr. Testaouni that Canada is an extraordinary safe haven and that it shows great openness. Quebec, the province I'm from, is a land where people encourage sharing and where people reach out. I'm thinking of the Pride parade in Montreal. It has become a family celebration. That's very significant.

You raised a point that intrigued me. According to you, there are 100,000 queer companies that generate about $22 billion in revenue in Canada. Is that just in Canada?

[Naoufel Testaouni]

Yes, that's right.

[Dominique Vien, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

You said it was 435,000 employees.

First, why do you need to mention those companies? What more do they bring to this debate for you to need to come and talk to us about them? What's special about them?

[Naoufel Testaouni]

There are two parts to my answer.

First, there is an economic cost to the problem we're discussing today. Not only is it a mental health issue, but it's also an economic issue. People who are uninformed about their gender may suffer from depression, and because of that, they are no longer productive in their jobs. There's a cost associated with that, and there's also a cost to parents.

Second, our organization is similar to other organizations in the United States, where research has been done on productivity among LGBT entrepreneurs and their employees. Three very important results were reported. It was shown that LGBT entrepreneurs produced 119% more patents, recruited 36% more members and had 44% more opportunities to exit their businesses. When the community is attacked, people are unable to thrive in the environment that stems from that.

[Dominique Vien, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

In terms of the economic losses that could be related to non-recognition, violence or those issues affecting the community, can you tell us whether that has been assessed? Can this phenomenon be quantified?

[Naoufel Testaouni]

We did do some research on that. You will find the details in the document we provided to the committee.

In the tech sector, 36% of community members were discriminated against during the recruitment process. In addition, 9.5% of people believed they had been the target of discrimination. That means that 50% of people had a negative experience during the recruitment process.

Also, once people are hired by a company, those problems increase. Indeed, 56% of people have experienced discrimination because of their gender or identity.

[Dominique Vien, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

We don't get the impression that discrimination in the hiring process still goes on nowadays. It seems to me that people are not asked to declare their sexual orientation.

How is that possible?

[Naoufel Testaouni]

Discrimination takes many forms. I think there are a lot of biases in these processes. That's why we need more awareness programs. People need to be able to tell their stories. There's a lot of misinformation out there.

[Dominique Vien, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

I would like to ask you a sensitive question. Does violence or hate exist between members of your community? Do these companies provide a violence-free environment?

[Naoufel Testaouni]

No, our communities are not free from violence.

That said, a lot of work has been done to improve workplaces. Recently, in Quebec, legislation was passed to tighten up measures related to psychological harassment. Sexual harassment was also added to the Charter of Human Rights and Freedoms and certain laws were amended. Work is being done, and it is very much needed.

[Dominique Vien, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

Thank you.

I will close by saying this —

[The Chair, Conservative, Shelby Kramp-Neuman]

I'm sorry—