Status of Women Committee on Dec. 11th, 2024

[Dominique Vien, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

Everyone should address this so we can come up with a more specific definition. For the moment, people have their own definitions of the word "hatred".

Thank you, Ms. de Repentigny‑Corbeil. Going back to a passage from your testimony that really spoke to me. You said that it's open season on everyone.

There have been 25 femicides in Quebec in 2024, and the year isn't yet over. There have been 169 femicides in Canada. The current outbreak of violence in this country is a major concern.

Thank you for being with us, Mr. Tremblay.

[Dave Tremblay]

Good afternoon.

[Dominique Vien, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

Good afternoon.

You're the first person who has told us about the problems that victims experience with the police, with law enforcement agencies. That's what you said. The police do a terrific job, but victims tell us it isn't easy.

[Dave Tremblay]

That's right.

[Dominique Vien, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

Does the fact that people are members of the LGBTQ community make it harder for them, when they communicate with police officers, to make themselves heard and to make the police understand the reality they experience? The reality of that community has to be understood in police departments, as it must elsewhere in society. The community must have its needs known and its profile understood.

Is the community's situation now more complicated than it used to be?

[Dave Tremblay]

Ms. Vien, thank you for the opportunity to discuss this, and I'll give you a clear answer.

Yes, it's harder for 2ELGBTQI+ people to make themselves understood by the police. Rightly or wrongly, there's an unresolved history between our communities and law enforcement agencies. It dates back to the time when trans identity and homosexuality were crimes under the Criminal Code. That's the way it was until 1969, and the wounds still haven't healed.

Today we can see that police officers work hard and do good work in this area. We have good collaboration with the Service de police de la Ville de Québec, the SPVQ. However, I understand why certain individuals who've been traumatized are reticent, and I don't mean to criticize them for that. I discussed conversion therapies with an SPVQ officer at an activity organized by Fondation Émergence. He candidly told me that he didn't know conversion therapies had become criminal.

It's troubling to see that some information just isn't out there on the ground. If that officer had dealt with a person who had just undergone conversion therapy, the latter might have been rejected because the information hadn't been transmitted to the officer.

I get the impression there's work to be done with the law enforcement agencies, which are our last defence against hatred.

[Dominique Vien, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Tremblay.

[The Chair, Conservative, Shelby Kramp-Neuman]

Thank you.

Ms. Sidhu, you have six minutes.

[Sonia Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton South, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to the witnesses for their testimony.

I'll start my questions with Ms. Dike-Hart.

We've heard about social media contributing to the amplifying of hate and sometimes extremism in Canada, particularly against groups like 2SLGBTQI+ communities.

Can you explain how?

[Daphne Dike-Hart]

Yes. Thank you so much for that question.

I think that is evident when you go through social media and see the types of comments you get, for example, when you post on same-sex relationships. People use anonymous pages, commenting right underneath with very gruesome words, such as getting five men to take the lesbianism out of them. Living your life and going through social media comments like that put you not just in a difficult mental space but also in a difficult physical space, because you don't know what your safety will be outside. Are they actually going to do it if you step out of your house?

That's the kind of hate we face as 2SLGBTQI+ people in Canada in general, not just in Calgary.

You also have people commenting about murder and things like that. When you have one person with that comment under your page, when other people see it—especially if it's people who also have that kind of sentiment—they then have the courage, I guess, to go and act on it. You have people when you walk on the streets.... Even during Pride, people would actually walk up to us. This past Pride, somebody walked up to us and said, “Oh, that group—I hope you guys die”, or something like that, and just walked away. This was just random, and obviously we don't know who that person was, but if he gathers 10 other people who have the same beliefs as he does, he can easily cause harm to us. We're female, right?

I think it's very easy for us to acknowledge that this hate exists, but what are we going to do about it? That is really what our stand is.

[Sonia Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton South, ON]

How can education and social programs be restructured to disrupt these pathways and to be used as awareness?

[Daphne Dike-Hart]

I think education is one thing that helps. A lot of the time, as I said, hate is not something that comes out of a vacuum but is something that is taught. You educate the public about how we are existing and how we can exist the same way that you can exist. The only difference is in how we choose to love. If you educate the public in that line, then they understand that we are as human as they are, and they can create space for us to exist and be in our authentic form.

When they don't have that education, especially for kids and young adults who grew up in environments with those kinds of restrictions, they go outside and feel that people from the 2SLGBTQI+ community are aliens. They grow up like that because those are the households they've grown up in. Education, in that sense, helps to make us as human as possible in their eyes. That way, we all can just live in harmony, because we're really just trying to exist with the same rights that they have.

[Sonia Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton South, ON]

Thank you.

My next question is for Mr. Schilling from The Alberta Teachers' Association.

In light of recent policy changes in Alberta, what do you see as the biggest challenges for educators in ensuring the success and well-being of transgender students in the province?

[Jason Schilling]

Thank you for the question. I hope the sound is better now for the interpreters.

Education is really going to be the key factor there. We need to ensure that our students have access to instruction around human identity, sexual identity and gender identity.

One of our fears and concerns is that with part of Bill 27, which is the legislation that just passed last week, there's going to be an opt-in version for instruction around those elements of sexual orientation and gender identity. This is going to cause a bunch of red tape that will get in the way of having students get this valuable instruction. They're going to miss out.

Under the Education Act currently, parents can opt out. We already have a system that's in place. We already have a system that is working. Both teachers and school boards have pushed back against the government, saying we don't need this opt-in version for instruction on human sexuality because we already have a system in place.

When people miss out on this valuable instruction that happens in schools, they don't get the information they need to know about consent, for example. I've talked to some folks who have trans children, and they say that through talking to other students or through the instruction they get at school around human sexuality and sexual identity, the children are learning that in fact they probably have been abused.

They need this information. We know that knowledge is power, so we need to ensure that all of our students can get the valuable information they need through instruction. One of our concerns is this opt-in provision.

Another part of Bill 27 that I didn't mention in my opening comments is that we now have to get all third party materials vetted through the government as well. Again, that's something that has already been happening in the course of instruction here in Alberta, but it adds another level and another opportunity for materials that can help students to be censored before the materials get into schools.

[The Chair, Conservative, Shelby Kramp-Neuman]

Thank you.

Ms. Larouche, the floor is yours for six minutes.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Thanks to the witnesses for being with us. Thanks as well to Zipp Neufeld, and I can confirm that their remarks were very clear. I tip my hat to them.

Ms. de Repentigny‑Corbeil, you had a lot to say in your preliminary remarks about hate speech both online and off. Since the legislation is inadequate, as it places no limits on online hate speech, what are the consequences of that for the community?

Should we consider setting a limit, while respecting freedom of expression, before speech becomes a criminal act and a genuine threat on which police officers could rely?

[Mylène de Repentigny-Corbeil]

Thank you for your question.

I think that's a multisectoral problem. There is access to justice, and there are bills and recourse mechanisms, but the act isn't suited to new forms of technology or to what actually happens online. Consider the fake news and artificial intelligence that contribute to that violence. The act doesn't yet recognize those many forms of violence.

We also have to focus on the programs and resources that the community needs. We need to introduce measures designed to support victims and increase awareness and prevention of this kind of violence. I'm thinking, in particular, of digital literacy, awareness of what happens online, monitoring measures and setting up discussion forums on online platforms. Legislation in this area has to be amended.

Your colleague discussed the connection between women and the LGBTQ+ communities. We see it: all the masculinist, antifeminist and misogynistic speech often goes together with homophobic and transphobic speech. These mentalities and ideologies are all over the web, as a result of which there are no more safe spaces for LGBTQ+ people, including young ones.

The threat is real, and I think the response it should elicit is education programs that aren't just about sexuality, but also about digital literacy and everything that happens online. This phenomenon is far too widespread.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you. Perhaps we can come back to this.

From what I understand, we also have to take into account the fact that artificial intelligence and fake news contribute to misinformation and disinformation. It's important that we have a statute that addresses both these new technologies and the scope of hate speech and how it can be framed. So we should continue discussing this at the federal level.

Mr. Tremblay, we met yesterday at the festivities in Quebec City. It's always a great event.

You mentioned conversion therapies. I know that Fondation Émergence organized the national symposium on conversion therapies, but I was unfortunately unable to attend.

Are you referring to that event? You said you learned some things there?

[Dave Tremblay]

Yes, that's true.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

We spoke with Fondation Émergence representatives following the symposium and learned that, although there's a new federal act, it's easy for certain religious communities to circumvent it and continue with conversion therapies.

My question concerns two points: first, the importance of making the judicial system aware of the new act, and, second, the need to come up with tools that can make it easier to intervene and identify religious communities that are circumventing the act so they can continue their conversion therapies.

What's your opinion on that subject?

[Dave Tremblay]

In 2018, we submitted a brief to the National Assembly of Quebec entitled, "Who wants to cure homosexuality?", which told the story of Gabriel Nadeau, who had undergone conversion therapy.

Perhaps you've met Mr. Nadeau. His story is very moving. He underwent a type of conversion therapy that I want to call "exorcism". That concept is woven into the title of his book.

Religious communities should be made aware of the Canadian and Quebec statutes respecting conversion therapies so that their practices don't break the law.

We should also ensure that penalties are imposed when individuals actually break the law that prohibits conversion therapies.

As we mentioned, that's one of the challenges involved in enforcing the act. The police must have a free hand and be familiar with the current legislation so they can investigate places where this type of service is offered.

[The Chair, Conservative, Shelby Kramp-Neuman]

Thank you.

MP Gazan, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you so much, Chair.

I'd like to thank all of the witnesses for coming today.

I want to start with you, Zipp.

A lot of the great leaders of our time—Greta Thunberg comes to mind—are younger folks who are pretty wise and provide a lot of guidance. I try to be a good ally. It's important to me. Human rights are important to me.

You said something in your testimony that I'm wondering if you can help me understand better. You said to not make this a political issue. I want your advice, so can I tell you quickly what my conflict is?

People are making it a political issue. You brought that up. You spoke about legislation being put forward. I know you testified in front of Saskatoon's city hall and made these profound statements, including this one that I'm a big fan of: “I deserve to age without fear that the bathroom and change space that allows me to feel safe and at peace will be taken from me.” You said, “When trans adults thrive, trans kids survive.” That's profound. That's very wise.

What do we need to do or not do, as elected officials, to make sure you survive?

[Zipp Neufeld]

I'm trying to think for a second.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Take your time.