Status of Women Committee on Sept. 29th, 2022

[Owen Charters]

At this point, I think we're looking for some of the structure of what it would be that we could actually apply for, in cases where we might fit. Other parts of the system may have access to some grants that don't apply to us, but we don't yet have a stream of funding that makes sense for the work we do or that we'd be eligible for.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

Mr. Matchett, I think you talked about that. You said you didn't fit under the categories outlined so far to apply for funding. Is that correct?

[Gordon Matchett]

Exactly. We have had an opportunity to meet with the Minister of Mental Health and Addictions. Right now we're experiencing an incredible amount of support from the federal government, but we're concerned about the jurisdictional issues. Because we offer a mental health program that's embedded in schools, there's this concern about how that should be the mandate of the school system. The school system is very clear that mental health supports for vulnerable youth are above and beyond its mandate.

We keep getting bounced between provincial government ministries. When we go to the federal government, we go between ministries as well. We get bounced back to the provincial government. We get bounced to the school district. There is not a clear, direct path to funding for a unique and innovative program like Take a Hike.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Thank you so much.

We're now going to pass the next five minutes to Marc Serré.

Marc, you have five minutes.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I am going to carry on the same topic as my colleague.

The federal health minister is holding round tables with his provincial and territorial counterparts right now. They are discussing the expansion of community services and services to help young people with addictions, meaning those aged between 10 and 25. Obviously, they are also talking about early intervention as a form of prevention.

Those are happening right now.

I heard earlier, Krystal-Jyl Thomas, that the system was hard to navigate. We also heard that the system is broken. I want to hear your comments on that. You mentioned psychiatry. You mentioned that donations—not even government—are funding the program. That's scary, to say the least.

There are also eating disorders. I have personal experience with youth up to 18, and then they go into the abyss, really, because there are no services.

I want to ask a question. I'll start with the Royal Ottawa Health Care Group and then go around. Right now, we are negotiating with the provinces. What best practices or outcomes or results would you see that the federal...? You mentioned virtual care. We don't have much time, so could you give us three or four points on what is needed in a federal-provincial agreement? Should the federal government be funding in the next 12 months, until this agreement is done, directly to communities, bypassing the provinces? I just want to get a sense of the urgency today, and then how you negotiate that. If you were talking to the ministers of health, what would you tell them to look at for those high-level agreements?

[Krystal-Jyl Thomas]

I think I would start with requesting that there be protected funds going directly to services such as women's mental health. You already said it perfectly. It's kind of ridiculous that we're depending on charities to continue to—

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Big cities will get donations and rural areas will not get private donors.

[Krystal-Jyl Thomas]

Yes, absolutely.

As for whether virtual or in-person is better, that's interesting. I don't have any hard data to support it. If you had asked me prior to the pandemic, I would without a doubt have said in-person, but we've seen a really powerful impact with virtual care. If it comes down to the barriers of distance between rural communities, I think making sure we have good Internet connection in those places is somewhere to start.

I don't know if Michelle has something she might want to add to that piece.

[Michelle Jackson-Brown]

Yes. I would just reiterate that we should have funding specifically earmarked for mental health care and substance use. Within that, specifically for women's mental health care, we met with the minister and talked about having specific funding for perinatal mental health care, for example. We don't have that. We're drawing on reserves from other parts of the hospital for programs like that. Right now, for example, for perinatal mental health care, there's a six-month wait at the Ottawa Hospital, and by that point women don't qualify. From six months up to a year, they don't qualify for it anymore.

Again, with the virtual care, it's great if we can invest in that, but we should also be investing in the rural communities—having organizations that are, for example, indigenous-led and ensuring that we can provide the supports through virtual care from our hospital, as long as we have partner organizations on the ground.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

I think I have 30 seconds or so left. Can you provide to the committee a briefing on best practices, looking at the federal-provincial relationship in those agreements?

Mr. Matchett, the aspect of the shortage of human resources has been raised everywhere. When we look at training and retention, in which areas do you think the federal government and the provinces should be doing the most work?

[Gordon Matchett]

For Take a Hike, we look at recruiting registered clinical counsellors to be mental health clinicians in our programs. We really encourage the government to invest in training programs for those folks. We have a very difficult time recruiting clinicians.

I'm thinking about the attempt to recruit a clinician in Merritt right now. I'm sure you've all heard about Merritt with respect to fires and floods over the last year. We're looking to recruit a counsellor for Merritt, and we've heard so many people say, “You know, I just don't want to live in that community.” So we're looking to offer some incentives to people to live in the community. We really need to have some support to be able to offer additional dollars to people to provide those additional incentives.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Thank you so much.

I'm now going to pass it over to Andréanne Larouche. You have five minutes.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Mr. Matchett, I am coming back to you because you touched upon the complex issue of jurisdiction.

Here is an example. In Quebec, we drew up a non-partisan plan to help women who are victims of intimate partner violence. The report is called Rebâtir la confiance, or “Rebuilding Confidence” in English. The Quebec Government drew up a plan to help women break free from violence, which can help with their mental health.

Organizations have been asking for funding. Mr. Matchett, you spoke about jurisdiction: this is at the heart of the issue. Ms. Thomas, you stated that organizations working on the frontline do not have enough funding. I just keep coming back to this idea about the importance of transfer payments and reinvesting in the healthcare system, without getting into a war on jurisdictional powers.

Quebec and the provinces are currently requesting health transfer payments. Quebec has community organizations who are ready to work on the frontline, but they need predictability. Bigger and regular transfer payments that can be invested in the healthcare system would allow organizations to provide services to their clients on a longer-term basis. As you said, one-time funding is not a good solution. Organizations need to be able to offer long-term projects that help women with mental health issues. It is important to have stable, regular and permanent transfer payments. The crisis caused by the pandemic has revealed the need to reinvest in our healthcare system. We are not yet out of the woods; the number of cases is still increasing. The pandemic crisis has revealed how fragile a lot of people are.

Mr. Matchett, could you please clear up the issue of jurisdiction? At the top, there's a federal state that is obligated to make transfer payments to Quebec and the provinces so that they can invest in health. That would simplify the transfer payments and support given to organizations. This is what we have done in Quebec. I would also like you to talk about the importance of funding organizations and of recognizing the work they do on the frontline.

Mr. Matchett, if you could talk about jurisdiction and then, because time is running out, come back to the importance of investing more in our community organizations that know exactly what to do to help people. Currently, depending on what will happen, the quickest way would be to have transfer payments. Quebec and the provinces already have plans in place. I know that in Quebec, community organizations have their plans all drawn up: they are ready and willing and just need funding to get going.

[Gordon Matchett]

I would agree. There are projects in British Columbia like Take a Hike that are ready, and they need funding right now. Take a Hike, for the last 22 years, has been funded almost entirely by philanthropy. Last year we received about $150,000 of non-COVID-related government funding.

This year, as we're starting to negotiate some funding with the federal government, there are concerns around how the province is supporting the Take a Hike program. Instead of asking charities to navigate the jurisdiction among provinces and territories and ministries, we need to have governments able to navigate those jurisdictions themselves.

Charities are small. We are a $4.5-million organization. We are doing all we can to provide services to youth, and what we need is the funding. We need to have those barriers removed, like having to figure out which jurisdiction to go to and then, when we do get funding, being asked, “Well, what does this other jurisdiction [Technical difficulty—Editor] need?”

[Krystal-Jyl Thomas]

Beyond the funding piece, I think when we're looking at women transferring out of a shelter or youth transferring into another care centre or somebody coming into an ER, something we see often is that only one thing gets addressed. If I walk into an ER with three bullet holes and you give me great care for one of those bullet holes and then you put me on a wait-list for the other two, I'm not going to fare very well. That's something we see.

We talk about parallel services or wraparound services. When we look at the five points of care that we need to address, we see that they're all addressed at the same time. We don't just focus on one while we exacerbate others. I think that would go hand in hand with funding.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Fantastic. I'm now going to pass it over to Leah.

Leah, you have five minutes.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you so much, Madam Chair.

My question is for Gordon Matchett.

You spoke about the difficulty in finding frontline mental health care providers, particularly in remote areas. I'm a long-time educator. Prior to being elected, I taught at the University of Winnipeg, in fact, and one of the things we focused on was training people to work right in community. For example, I was in education and we actually trained teachers from the community to teach in the community.

We know that people who are from communities are committed to staying there. Do you think that instead of piloting in specialists, it would be worthwhile...? For example, education on reserve actually does flow through the federal government. On-reserve and post-secondary programs also, for first nations people who qualify, fall under the federal government. Do you think it would be worthwhile to provide support for programs to train people who are from the community rather than shipping people into communities?

[Gordon Matchett]

Absolutely. I think it would be best to have a clinician who knows the community very well and who is able to respond to the needs based on their own lived experience of being in that community. If we're able to provide opportunities to give that training to those folks so they're then able to return to the community, I think that is the best way to do it, but that doesn't solve the issues right now.

A small not-for-profit like Take a Hike—again, we're less than $5 million—isn't able to take that three-to-five-year time horizon because we don't even have the commitment for three to five years' worth of funding for Merritt. We need to count on our donors to be able to support that, and our donors can't necessarily decide to provide that training for this counsellor. That is where we will need to have more substantial funding from government.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

I've heard that from everybody, that government funding is certainly a critical issue and that we currently don't have a level of funding that addresses the severity of the mental health crisis we're experiencing across the country.

I notice that you are nodding, and I'm just wondering if you have anything to add to that.

[Krystal-Jyl Thomas]

Absolutely. If we can invest in training people within their communities, people who have experienced what life has been like in their community and have first-hand experience, that's going to be much more meaningful to human connection in the long run.

I know I've talked about it a lot, but I would come back to peer support. That is a way we can get people trained faster. They have the lived experience and they can be a first line of connection there. If we can have earmarked funding, as they do in the U.S., that goes towards peer support in our provinces and territories so we can build people up within their communities, I think that's going to have one of the greatest impacts we will see on people's mental health.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Go ahead.

[Michelle Jackson-Brown]

I just want to add to that the importance of having indigenous-led organizations within the communities. One of our psychiatrists, for example, was involved in a training program in which she trained a nurse practitioner who was already embedded in the indigenous community. She was able to partner with that nurse practitioner to provide mental health care. She was part of the community, providing care to that community, which is so much better.

I have worked with youth who have come down from Nunavut, where every four months a social worker was being flown in. They couldn't make a connection with a social worker because it was always a new person coming in. Having somebody who's already there, who is trained and whom we can partner with to provide support is going to be the best investment.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

I know that the Boys and Girls Club does similar things in terms of youth actually being part of the Boys and Girls Club. I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about that. I often end up working in the Boys and Girls Club. I know that in Winnipeg—I do brag about my community because I think we're the best riding in Canada, and I would debate with all of my colleagues around the table—we have a lot of organizations that in fact have that model. They bring in youth. They train youth and the youth actually become the leaders within the organization.

Can you please expand on that?

[Owen Charters]

Yes, absolutely. That's actually a big part of our model. We find that a lot of youth—two-thirds of our staff—who come through the clubs end up working in the clubs. We have 7,000 staff across the country, and two-thirds of them are youth, most of whom have come up through the club and go on to other careers in the community. We often hear from all sorts of organizations—retail, hospitality, etc.—that the people they hire from the club are some of the best employees they have.

These programs work in a multitude of ways.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Would you say that this kind of mentorship—