Status of Women Committee on Dec. 1st, 2022

[Jenna Sudds, Liberal, Kanata—Carleton, ON]

Thank you very much for both of those answers.

The other piece you mentioned, Ciara, that I'd love to ask more about is around needing to shine a light on the financial relationship. You mentioned Sport Law and ITP. This is something we haven't heard yet at this committee, and it's a bit shocking, frankly.

I'm trying to get my head around that and think about what tools or what is needed in order to stop that, in order to ensure that this obvious conflict doesn't exist and that athletes are protected. You spoke very eloquently and very knowledgeably on that topic, and I'm wondering if you have suggestions about how that could be stopped.

[Ciara McCormack]

I think, again, it boils down to the athletes' having a group that's advocating solely for the athletes because, unfortunately, people don't have the moral compass. It is about business and money, and if they can exploit the athletes' information to gain traction in their business on the side that does have the money and power, unfortunately people make that choice to engage in that conflict of interest. Again, I think there needs to be a group that's advocating for the athletes.

I think it's also important to mention that when you come forward, you don't have any experience or background. You are in this whirlwind, and people are reaching out to you. If you don't know the lay of the land, it's easy to.... If someone approaches you, you think that they're there to help you. You don't even know about this whole underbelly that's protecting the institution of sport, and it's super easy to just get sucked in.

That's, again, where I think it's so important that we have that balance in the system so that when you come forward, the way I came forward.... The only reason why even mentally I got through the first month was that, just by chance, my friend was friends with Gen Simard, who was a whistle-blower in the Alpine Canada case. She was on the phone with me for a full month. I've never met her in person, but she supported me.

There needs to be a formal body that does that. I think that if there is a group protecting the athletes, then they're not going to be susceptible to organizations that are coming at them in their time of vulnerability and that are going to use their information to exploit and gain contracts with the institutions. Unfortunately, at this point, it's all so unregulated that that's happening all the time.

[Jenna Sudds, Liberal, Kanata—Carleton, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

You have 20 seconds.

[Jenna Sudds, Liberal, Kanata—Carleton, ON]

Myriam, you mentioned at one point early on that you were balancing work and this requirement to still make a living while training.

Can you speak to whether that's the norm? How do we fix that? How do we balance that better for athletes?

[Myriam Da Silva Rondeau]

Yes, that's the norm for a lot of federations.

To be honest, I really would've preferred to continue my lifestyle, which allowed me to train in the mornings before work, then to go and teach and then train after work with a trusted coach and a team that supported me. When you're an athlete, it's not the workload that scares you; it's the people around you. When our resources are taken away, we become vulnerable to the people around us.

I don't think that worrying about the balance that athletes have to establish between work and sport is the priority. We're very good at balancing all that, if I can presume to speak for most athletes. We have a lot of resources to help us do that, and we improve year over year by acquiring experience. The real problem arises when that balance is taken away from us.

Teaching helped me maintain a balance between work and sport. I'm as passionate about teaching as I am about sport. So it was very hard for me to agree to be removed under duress, but I had no choice if I wanted to be carded. There are rules that prevent you from maintaining a balance if you want to be a full-time athlete.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Thank you so much.

We're now going to pass it over to Andréanne Larouche.

Andréanne, you have six minutes.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Ms. Da Silva Rondeau and Ms. McCormack, I join with my colleagues in thanking you for being here this afternoon.

The first thing that comes to my mind is that you can be proud of yourselves. You are part of the change that I hope is coming.

Ms. McCormack, you referred in your opening remarks to groups that operate around athletes, specifically ITP Sport and Sport Law, as wolves in sheep's clothing. You cited some examples involving Sport Law, but would you also like to give us some concerning ITP Sport?

[Ciara McCormack]

I know from speaking with athletes across multiple sports that they were approached by ITP and have shared private information about their cases, again, under the idea that the person approaching them is someone who is sympathetic to their situation. Then they have found months or weeks later that the organization is now representing and working with the NSO.

It's not my story to share, and I think it's also why it's really important to be opening this up to an inquiry, because I can tell you about multiple sports in which I know this has been a practice. I really implore the committee to reach out to athletes and to hear the stories, because I think you're only going to find further evidence for what we're both saying.

[Myriam Da Silva Rondeau]

I'd like to add a comment, Ms. Larouche.

That was my case. I filed complaints with ITP Sport in order to protect us, but that organization is now working with the federation to revamp the organization's culture.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Those connections are the reason why you mistrust the system in place, aren't they?

[Myriam Da Silva Rondeau]

Yes, among other things.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you very much for your comments, Ms. Da Silva Rondeau.

Ms. McCormack, were the Canada Soccer officials held accountable for their disgraceful actions toward athletes like you?

Has the system that Canada Soccer has put in place changed as Canada prepares to host the World Cup in 2026? And do you feel that Canada Soccer really wants to make a real change to the way it operates?

[Ciara McCormack]

No, absolutely not. We still, again, through a private donation, are trying to get even therapy money from Canada Soccer. There are so many conflicts of interest with Hockey Canada information that was coming forward and pressure on Canada Soccer. There needs to be a full financial review into Canada Soccer because I think it's part of the greater issue with Canada Soccer, in the sense that they have had no oversight towards both finances and morale.

Just as an example, the Vancouver Whitecaps have a relationship as a private organization with Canada Soccer, and that played a role in terms of concentrating power. There are all these different and very problematic financial relationships that I think were starting to come to light prior to the World Cup for the men when they went on strike.

Absolutely, Canada Soccer has done nothing in any way, shape, or form to have any kind of reparations for the harm that we went through. There has to be financial oversight and examination. Again, there's a lot of taxpayer money going into FIFA 2026, and there was so much harm done in our situation that hasn't been remedied in any capacity.

I really implore you to speak to somebody like Andrea Neil. She has whistle-blown and seen things first-hand and has information to share. Again, I think the financial part of it is tied in with the harm that we're experiencing as athletes and I think it's a piece in terms of the judicial inquiry.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Regarding finances, Hockey Canada representatives told us during their testimony about money whose existence had been concealed from the public and members of the association.

Would you say that Canadian Soccer Business has also deliberately concealed money from the public and its members?

[Ciara McCormack]

Absolutely, I think this is a private entity that's been set up. It's off the back of the assets of Canada Soccer. It's marketing and sponsorship money that is going into a private organization that nobody knows.

In this country, we don't have a professional or even a national league for women—one of the few countries in the world that are in the top 50 rankings for FIFA. We're Olympic gold medalists and we don't have this basic thing. We were always told, as female players, that there's not enough money. We have the highest participation, or one of the highest participations, of female players in the world, but somehow there's no money.

Absolutely, Canadian Soccer Business is a complete red flag in terms of a private entity attached to a national sport organization. I think it's so important on so many different levels, if we truly want change, that this be investigated.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Ms. Da Silva Rondeau, I'd like to take the few moments I have left to ask you a final question.

You say that you no longer trust the system in place and that we can't move forward without conducting an independent inquiry into what has been done in the past. In a few words, why do you think it's essential that such an inquiry be conducted before a new system is put in place?

[Myriam Da Silva Rondeau]

The keyword is “build”. We have to build a new system, but we need a clean platform on which to do it. You can't build a system on something that's broken; you'd just be making repairs. You can't repair furniture that was broken long ago.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Thank you.

We're now going to pass it over to Leah Gazan, who is online.

Leah, you have six minutes.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you, Chair.

I'm so sorry that I can't be with you in person today.

I want to start out by thanking both of you for sharing your testimony. I want to acknowledge that it's difficult to share stories, particularly with the experiences you've had of not being heard or believed. I believe both of you. I want to thank you for being here today.

This question is for both of you. I'd like both of you to respond to it.

We've heard directly from you today and from other witnesses who have come before this committee about how calling out abuse in your sport, when there's abuse in sport, impacts you personally.

Ms. Rondeau, today you spoke about how there are lots of supports and resources, but there's nobody to hold them accountable. I think you both provided examples of organizations that were supposedly there to help you but that had clear conflicts of interest of being on both sides. It's very clear to me that wanting justice has come at a great emotional cost for you, for your friends, for your teammates and for your reputations, and has often impacted your careers.

I looked up an article from The Guardian with regard to what you shared, Ms. McCormack. It's entitled “Sexual abuse in sport: Fifa backs executives after failure to tell players about sexually abusive coach”. You were speaking about how when you come forward with abuse and then you're not believed, it results in the abuse of other individuals, children and young people. We need to change that.

I have a couple of questions, but first I want to read this out:

Fifa has backed senior officials within its organization after a failure to tell players and the public the real reason why now-convicted sex offender and former national team coach Bob Birarda left Canada Soccer in 2008.

The officials—Victor Montagliani, the president of Concacaf and a Fifa vice-president, and Peter Montopoli, the chief operating officer for Canada for the 2026 World Cup—were senior Canada Soccer officials with central roles in Birarda’s exit from his job as Canada’s U-20 women’s national team coach after he was found to have acted inappropriately with his own players.

They're still in high-ranking positions.

I want to ask you two questions. One, how can we protect survivors, victims and witnesses, even in this committee, from further abuse as you come forward once again and put your safety—I include emotional safety in that—on the line? Two, what can we do so that future survivors can be allowed to speak their truth safely without being subjected to further pain and further revictimization?

Those questions are for both of you.

Thank you.

[Myriam Da Silva Rondeau]

I think we need to be provided with outside legal resources so we can protect ourselves in the public square.

The director of high-performance sport at the federation filed a civil lawsuit against me in response to comments that my colleagues and I had posted on social media and in the public square, which was our only recourse. I received a demand letter, to which I was required under law to respond, relying on lawyers whom I paid out of my own pocket.

It's definitely hard to report wrongdoing publicly, knowing that you're exposing yourself to legal proceedings.

[Ciara McCormack]

Again, I completely agree with Myriam. In terms of FIFA still harbouring people who were directly involved in our case, I think, again, on a societal level, we need to say that it's not okay and find a way to break these relationships. For us, essentially, for 11 years they all just closed in on each other. Whether we went to the media or soccer organizations or whatever, everybody was in bed with each other and everybody was protecting each other, so we had nowhere to go.

Even in the sense of what we could do when people come forward, like for therapy.... I was lucky enough to have the resources to have a lot of therapy over COVID, which completely changed things for me, but that was an absolute privilege and not a right. I was completely harmed by our sports system for 10 years, so I think, again, those sorts of resources, like support, even just.... Those are just the sorts of things where you're so siloed, and you're up against these massive organizations and these people and power, and there's just nothing on the other side.

Like Myriam said, people are signed to NDAs, even those who want to speak out with the Canada Soccer situation, board members, former coaches. I know people directly who do want to speak to the kinds of things that have gone on, but they're under NDAs and they're afraid to speak because there are legal ramifications for doing so. These are all things that, again.... I think it's just very important that we send a message that they are not okay.

Groups like FIFA are not above basic human rights and treating people properly, and athletes should not have to go through this. I would love nothing more than if the 11 years during which we were silenced turned into Canada being a strong voice and a strong leader to say that this is not okay, that their coming into our country with our taxpayers' money for their event and harbouring people who were part of covering up for a sexual predator is not okay. I just think support is completely lacking, legal, emotional, all of it. There's absolutely none of that currently, and I think that alone needs to change.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

We're going to do our next round. As you can see, I'm being as flexible as possible. We have 15 minutes for our last round, so that's five minutes, five minutes, two and a half minutes, and two and a half minutes, and that's how we'll end today.

If you want to share your time during that five minutes, do your thing.

I'm going to pass the floor over to Michelle Ferreri for five minutes.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you very much to our witnesses for being here. I really appreciate it. I know a lot of people really appreciate what you're doing. It's a lot of responsibility to be the voice of many, so I really appreciate your being here. It is very emotional and tough to hear, so I can only imagine how tough it is to relive it and say it, so thank you.

Myriam, if I may ask you, you touched on something that I was really interested in. You asked, if there are no systems in place, how do we enforce accountability? Ciara, you talked about a national judicial inquiry, which is what you guys have both asked for over 30 times. It's really shocking to hear that number. Both of these comments kind of overlap, so that's why I'm asking both of you. You said that it's not just “bad apple” coaches. That really jumped off the page for me, because I think some people think that predators will be drawn to wherever children are.

To your point about power, Myriam, those were very powerful comments as well. What will a national inquiry do to address the system? Myriam, you talked about no systems being in place.

Could you both touch on what I've said here?

[Myriam Da Silva Rondeau]

To get a clearer idea of what's going on, we'll have to clarify the situation and clean out all these toxic connections between the systems that are supposed to protect us and the sport federations. We need to do that cleanup and to hold the individuals who perpetuate the toxic culture in our sport to account.