Status of Women Committee on Dec. 1st, 2022

[François Lemay]

It can be seen at every level. I'm going to speak in French, if you don't mind, because it's a very specific question.

I have worked a lot at the local level and I have had to handle abuse cases. Ms. Da Silva Rondeau and Ms. McCormack have eloquently explained the problem from a national perspective, but the roots of this same evil can be seen at the local level, even if it is on a smaller scale.

The people who rise through the ranks started somewhere. The people who put toxic systems and abuse in place in national sport started at the local level 15 or 20 years earlier. They did not arrive at the national level from nowhere.

That is why we have to work at the base by training volunteers and promoting professionalization. From my perspective, this is very important, since doing that will, in itself, mean that prevention work can be done.

I believe it was Ms. Da Silva Rondeau who said this was the tip of the iceberg. Everything we don't see is what goes on at the local level.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you.

I read in an article that you had complained to the management of Hockey Quebec, asking it to change its culture, which is problematic. Have you had a response? Have you seen any changes since your complaint?

[François Lemay]

During the summer, when the 2018 scandal came out in the media, I had an opportunity to speak with Mr. Thibault, the executive director of Hockey Quebec, and Mr. Fortin, the chair of the board of directors. I would not go so far as to say that I had some influence on them, but I had the opportunity to speak to them. I told them that the problem was much more serious than they thought.

At the time, there was wide coverage in the English-language media of the unacceptable situation going on at Hockey Canada. In Granby, it was resolved not to pay Hockey Canada, and that snowballed. There were reactions.

I might think that this fueled discussion at Hockey Quebec in the right way. After that, Hockey Quebec took the bull by the horns and displayed some degree of leadership in putting pressure on Hockey Canada. It had some success, since the two chairs and the CEO, Mr. Smith, resigned.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

A witness spoke about the importance of empowering our young people and their parents by educating them and giving them training. If the parents told their children what is appropriate and what is not, in front of the coaches, might that encourage coaches not to engage in abusive behaviour?

[François Lemay]

Yes, absolutely.

The coach has to be present, because we are all members of a big sports family. In theory, there should be no dividing line between the coach, who is very often a parent, and the children.

As Ms. Lafrenière said earlier, coaches' training involves ethics courses, among other things. I have taken an ethics course myself, through the National Coaching Certification Program.

Then we have to know how to train our organizations and follow up with parents. When it comes to ethics and abuse, you don't talk the same way to 6‑year-olds as you do to 14‑year-olds. Progressive instruction has to be provided for children and parents. There has to be continuous follow‑up.

Canadian amateur sport is based on volunteerism. Every three or four years, the composition of a local board of directors changes completely, and the result is a loss of expertise. So you have to start all over, but that is not what is given priority. Instead, the priority is registrations, jerseys, schedules and the like. The point is that we have to help Canadian volunteers, everywhere in Canada.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you.

I am going to go to Ms. Lafrenière next.

How much time do I have left?

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

You have 45 seconds.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

What do you think needs to change specifically in the training of coaches? You've said there's a lot of education regarding that, but it's not regulated. They're not necessarily forced to go through you, and they're not necessarily followed up with after they've passed their course.

What recommendations would you make that coaches are required to have in order to work with children in terms of training and follow-up?

[Lorraine Lafrenière]

Honestly, the inquiry has to be asked that question. I would suggest to you that the school system, which has coaches, has a formative role at a very early stage with students and student athletes, and that should be considered.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you both very much.

I probably only have 10 second left, so I want to thank you for coming in and informing us of your perspectives.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Thanks very much.

I'm now going to pass it over to Andréanne Larouche, for six minutes.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. Lemay, I want to thank you for your testimony. You can rest assured that you do belong here. As a parent, you instigated an important movement this summer. Your testimony is an important addition to our study.

I would like to come back to certain points that you raised in your opening presentation and the fact that we have heard numerous revelations of sexual violence that have left their mark on the sports world in the last few months, that in fact being what made you react.

I would like you to tell us about the culture of silence and the toxic behaviour that too often characterize sport.

[François Lemay]

Sexual violence emerges very early on, but it is often trivialized. It takes root because of a lack of education. You will maybe say I am belabouring the point, but Canadian volunteers are not necessarily trained to respond to sexual assault or harassment cases. It can start with a bad joke in the locker room that continues when the children get older. The volunteers do not have enough training to respond to situations like that.

Personally, I am lucky to be a physical educator and vice-principal of a school, so I was trained and equipped to respond to situations like this, although I would not go so far as to say I am comfortable in those cases. However, if a volunteer's job is as a factory manager, their primary skill isn't dealing with sexual assault or harassment cases, not to mention that they also may not have the necessary lens for spotting them.

To combat the toxic atmosphere, the housecleaning has to start at the top, but we must not ignore the training and help that volunteers and local associations need.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

In the wake of all these cases of abuse of very young athletes in the sports world, the Minister of Sport was repeatedly pressured by people involved in that world, calling for a change of culture.

Given the toxic nature of the present situation, what do you expect from the minister and from us as federal politicians?

[François Lemay]

Thank you for your question.

What I would like is for a solution to be found. We have to work with the provinces. Ms. Lafrenière said earlier, and very eloquently, that we have to work with the schools, because they have front row seats, and with the sports clubs. Canada has to have its own way of doing things.

The committee has rightly talked a lot about what has happened in high-level sport. The federal government takes a strong interest in elite athletes or national teams, which is entirely to be expected. However, we have to keep in mind that the abuse and harassment started somewhere. If we want to achieve a complete result, I think we have to focus on all stages of the “making” of an athlete, starting at age 5 or 6 or 7, at the point when the child is having fun exploring a new sport, and right up to the point where they become elite athletes at age 25 or 35 or so.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

On that point, what do you think about the Office of the Sport Integrity Commissioner? Does it have what it takes to conduct independent investigations? Do you believe athletes trust that system?

That office has no coercive power, but it is funded directly by Sport Canada, which has repeatedly let a number of athletes down. If we want athletes to regain their trust, should we be doing things differently?

[François Lemay]

I think that Ms. McCormack and Ms. Da Silva Rondeau explained the problems encountered with ITP Sport and Sport Law very well. They also explained the failure of Sport Canada very well.

I think there has to be an independent body in Canada or in the provinces to handle complaints and cases of abuse and harassment. There has to be a place that our athletes, our parents and our coaches—because there are also coaches who are victims—can trust.

Given the failures on the part of Sport Canada, does the Office of the Sport Integrity Commissioner still have people's trust at this time? I couldn't tell you, or say that, beyond a doubt.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

You are a coach at the local level. If I am not mistaken, that Office only deals with high-level athletes, so that means that an entire category of athletes might suffer abuse but not get help from that Office because they don't meet the criteria.

[François Lemay]

In Quebec, we can go to Sport'Aide, which offers support at the local level. I have referred people to that body, which deserves wider recognition and is in fact becoming increasingly well known. There needs to be an equivalent in all of the provinces and territories. That might be the equivalent of the Office of the Sport Integrity Commissioner, in terms of its independence at the national level.

I think it was Ms. Vandenbeld who explained earlier that it is fundamental for athletes to also be able to have assistance in the process. When a complaint is filed, it is easy to get lost in an administrative labyrinth. Getting assistance in the process really is an advantage. I think Ms. Da Silva Rondeau also said it was relatively easy to get lost in all the policies.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

When you talk about athletes, you use the word “independence” a lot to talk about this independent commission of inquiry. That is something like we saw in the case of doping in Canada. The many cases there have been have got to be investigated.

[François Lemay]

As Ms. Lafrenière explained very well earlier, the Commission of Inquiry into the Use of Drugs and Banned Practices Intended to Increase Athletic Performance, which was created in the wake of the Ben Johnson case, made Canada a leader in the anti-doping battle. We even have the head office of the World Anti-Doping Agency here in Canada.

If we want to get results, we have to undertake a broad, rigorous process of self-examination into Canadian amateur sport at all levels. We are going to learn some unpleasant things. We are going to see flaws. We have already seen some of them. However, I think it is something that has to be done.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

That's wonderful.

Thank you very much.

I'm now going to pass it over to Leah Gazan for six minutes.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you so much.

My first questions are for Madame Lafrenière.

Excuse my ignorance, but I'm just trying to understand this. You were talking about certification for coaches. How are coaches currently licensed? Is it through the province?

[Lorraine Lafrenière]

Licensing is a different practice. A licence is used as a licence to practise. That's a different type of process that doesn't really exist. Some sports have it.

On education, I will give you the analogy of medical doctors. They go to McGill University and get their medical degree, but then they're part of the regulated profession that gives them their licence to practise.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

That's right.