Evidence of meeting #43 for Status of Women in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was athletes.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Myriam Da Silva Rondeau  As an Individual
Ciara McCormack  As an Individual
François Lemay  As an Individual
Lorraine Lafrenière  Chief Executive Officer, Coaching Association of Canada

4:40 p.m.

NDP

Leah Gazan NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB

Thank you, Madam Chair.

It's alarming testimony, but we knew about this. That's the thing. You're talking about systems. Let's talk about the abuse of gymnasts. This is something that has been in the news forever, in terms of human rights violations. FIFA.... It's in the news, all the time.

We talk about sports organizations, but we also have a responsibility, as elected officials, to put in laws to protect people.

I want to read a quote from Lianne Nicolle. It's from an article in The Guardian, from this past April, about the investigation of sexual misconduct. I want to hear your perspectives on this. She said, “The only people in the system with moral courage are the athletes.”

That was Lianne Nicolle, a former soccer board member who was also, previously, the executive director of the Canadian Olympic Foundation. She goes on to say this: “Repercussions need to be higher for people not willing to have moral courage. It's not just the perpetrators [who are the issue]. It is the enablers.”

I want to hear your thoughts about what she had to say.

4:45 p.m.

As an Individual

Myriam Da Silva Rondeau

If administrators had the courage we have, they would have launched a judicial investigation a long time ago in their own federations. We asked for that in boxing. We asked for that investigation three times. It was rejected by the board three times.

Yes, the only people in the federations who have courage are the athletes in sports.

4:45 p.m.

NDP

Leah Gazan NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB

What struck me—again, part of the system—is that she said it's not just the perpetrators; it's the enablers, the bystanders and all of the people who know about this and continue to not act. What do you think should be done about that? What are some consequences for that?

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Karen Vecchio

I'm going to say here that we have only a very short time to finish these last few questions. This will be the end.

Go ahead and finish up.

4:45 p.m.

As an Individual

Ciara McCormack

I think that it's really important to recognize that there are always going to be abusers. I think, unfortunately, people care about themselves, their own survival, their institutions and how they look, ahead of doing the right thing. Unfortunately, I probably wouldn't have had such a negative and jaded viewpoint before all of this, but that's currently exactly how I feel.

I think we need laws. We need to recognize enablers with the same gravity that we do abusers. At the end of the day, even in our situation, if somebody had stepped up in 2008 and done the right thing, then this wouldn't have gone on as long as it did. It did go on because of those people and all of the people who continued to silence us as we came forward again and again.

I think we need to have laws where there are consequences. Unfortunately, the only way I think you're going to change behaviour is if people are going to personally have ramifications for their bad behaviour. Again, we have a long history now to show of harms being done off people's making the choice themselves of whether to do the right thing or not.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Karen Vecchio

Thank you so much.

On behalf of the committee, I'd really like to thank Ciara and Myriam for being here and sharing their stories.

I'm going to remind you: If you need any assistance, please feel free to call our status of women office. If there are any supports you need or anything like that, we're here to support you. Thank you so much.

We're going to suspend for a few seconds so that we can start our next panel.

Thank you. We're suspended.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Karen Vecchio

We're reconvening this meeting now.

I would like to welcome, as an individual, François Lemay, who is here in the room with us. From the Coaching Association of Canada, we have Lorraine Lafrenière, chief executive officer.

I'm just going to remind you, Lorraine, that if you're looking for the French, it's at the bottom of your screen. Here in the room, there's French and English interpretation on our earpieces.

I'm now going to pass the floor over to François Lemay for a five-minute opening comment.

Go ahead, François.

4:50 p.m.

François Lemay As an Individual

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

My name is François Lemay.

I would first like to thank Ms. Larouche for her invitation and for persuading me to come here today.

Hearing the testimony today, I can assure you that I am very humbled to be here today. I have over 30 years' experience as a volunteer and in sports administration in Quebec. However, I do not have the experience of Ms. Lafrenière, who trains the trainers in Canada, nor have I shown the courage demonstrated by Ms. McCormack and Ms. Da Silva Rondeau in my career. With that said, I am before you today to talk about my experience on the ground and in the development of young athletes. I train teams of boys and girls: mixed teams.

In recent months, due to a combination of circumstances in the media, I became a sort of unofficial spokesperson for parents who were furious with Hockey Canada. We were the first, in Granby, to speak out against our national federation, by refusing to pay our dues, among other things. A lot of water has flowed under the bridge since then, but little tangible progress has been made. While there were only a few of us rebelling against Hockey Canada, we were stunned to learn that the Canadian government was powerless, so to speak, before a national federation: it had no direct leverage other than money and public opinion.

On top of that, we saw the failure of Sport Canada, rightly condemned by Justice Cromwell, in its role as toothless guard dog. So I ask you, our elected representatives: who is guarding the guards, especially when the board of directors is useless?

As a parent, I am involved in my children's sports 12 months a year: schedule planning, training camps, practices, evaluations, games, 12‑hour days at tournaments, and much more. We are disappointed to see that even our federal government, or its delegate Sport Canada, is unable to take action directly, and we are overcome by discouragement. We don't have time to handle the governance of our national bodies, since we are on the playing field four or five times a week. We were entitled to trust an institution like Sport Canada. In light of the news reports and the recent testimony, we have to admit that this was a mistake.

In fact, the problem concerning amateur sport in Canada lies precisely in the word: “amateur”. The bulk of Canadian sports development rests on the shoulders of volunteers acting in good faith, but whose resources and experience are limited. While in Europe there is the civil club structure, and in the United States a network is taking shape in the secondary schools, in Canada we have a weird mixture of the two models, where there is a fundamental absence of professionalization.

Organizing a tournament, registrations, and, in a pinch, a budget: experienced volunteers can get those jobs done. However, to build a sports program based on long-term athlete development, to handle an abuse or harassment situation fairly, to establish governance and organizational transparency and to develop a strategic plan for women's sport takes time, experience, and the necessary training.

What we are seeing in the upper echelons of sport came from somewhere. The toxic culture did not appear by magic; it was allowed to grow, through a lack of experience and resources. Even with all the good will in the world, amateur sport is defined, for the most part, by cohorts of volunteer parents in succession, and this leaves too much room for error and abuses.

If we want to do something concrete to improve and help Canadian sport and, necessarily, help women's sport, which has enormous potential, the various governments have to commit to supporting volunteers. Amateur sport has to be professionalized and volunteer training in governance and development of their sport has to be funded. It is bizarre, for example, for the Canadian women's handball team to have to fundraise in order to qualify for the Pan American Games. In the same vein, it is bizarre for volunteers to have to investigate and monitor possibly abusive coaches. There are high hopes for our athletes and a lot is asked of our volunteers, but few resources are offered or it's gone about the wrong way.

To achieve this, we could start by allowing a tax deduction for the first $5,000 in income earned from refereeing or league management. The federal and provincial governments could also agree to fund full-time positions in amateur sports clubs directly. Sport Canada and its missions could also be reformed.

However, above all, there has to be cohesion in amateur sport. There are a lot of actors around the table whose roles are ill-defined. The more fractured amateur sport is, the bigger the opening there will be for mismanagement. Shaky leadership tends to go to ground when things are not working, but everyone is available to pick up a trophy.

I am not talking about a one-size-fits-all solution that would apply to all sports. Each discipline has its own circumstances. For example, handball needs resources, while hockey needs governance. The volunteers across Canada need your tangible help. We need full-time sports staff, not to replace us, but to keep our efforts going, and especially to guarantee more safety for our girls and boys. Canadian sport has to be modernized.

Thank you for the time you have given me.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Karen Vecchio

Thank you very much.

Joining us online is Lorraine Lafrenière.

Lorraine, I invite you to take the floor. You have five minutes.

4:55 p.m.

Lorraine Lafrenière Chief Executive Officer, Coaching Association of Canada

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I join you today from the territory of the Mississaugas of the Credit, the Anishinabe, the Chippewa, the Haudenosaunee and the Wendat peoples.

I want to stress the courage of the victims and survivors who have broken the silence. We have heard you. I also want to honour your bravery.

For those who continue to sound the alarm, as we've heard today, we are with you.

The system requires wholesale cultural change. The only way to achieve this is through a national judicial inquiry. This is an issue of national importance—the baseline. An inquiry will create a public road map for united cultural change. We have seen similar mechanisms used around the world, resulting in dramatic change to address systemic safe sport. I witnessed the power of the Dubin inquiry in 1988 after the Ben Johnson scandal. The legacy of that inquiry is that Canada is a leading anti-doping nation.

The mission of the Coaching Association of Canada is to oversee the development of coaches and sports workers, in accordance with ethical principles, and to put in place and promote a professional development program in association with all levels of government and all national, provincial and territorial federations.

On average, we train 50,000 coaches annually under the National Coaching Certification Program, from the community level all the way to high-level sport. Safety and ethics are central to the training that coaches are offered. Since 2006, a trainer has had to successfully complete the Make Ethical Decisions training in order to be certified.

In the last three years, we have worked with leading researchers to develop training in teen dating and gender-based violence, bystander empowerment, modelling healthy relationships, creating a positive sport environment, and anti-racism. This work is supported by Sport Canada, Status of Women Canada and the Public Health Agency of Canada.

In 2019, at the request of then minister Duncan, we created mandated safe sport training to educate all sport participants. As so eloquently spoken about previously, we need training and education to be part of it, and yet that's not all. We also partner with the Canadian Centre for Child Protection to deliver training on grooming awareness. We work with Respect Group and Kids Help Phone. We launched the responsible coaching movement, which includes evidence-based prevention strategies in the “rule of two” and training and screening. We screen coaches for major games. We offer a designation for coaches, but coaching is not a regulated profession.

The training and prevention programs I have spoken about are only one facet of safe sport culture. We are one organization. More is needed from us and more is needed from others. That's why a national judicial inquiry is required. This is a complex issue. Canada does have great coaches, and coaches play a vital role in supporting athletes and participants, as we just heard. At times, they are the only trusted individual in a young person's life. But that's not why we are here today. The power imbalance in coaching is a huge problem. Professional standards are a huge problem across the country. The lack of resources is a huge problem.

While we know that predators predominantly use the coaching role to abuse, it's also important to acknowledge that predators come in many forms. It's not just the coach-athlete relationship. Dr. Larry Nassar is one of the most horrific long-term abuses cases. Pairs skater John Coughlin sexually abused his partner, Bridget Namiotka, who committed suicide. Parker Egbert, a 19-year-old swimmer with autism and an intellectual disability, just recently filed a lawsuit alleging that he was violently and repeatedly raped at the Tokyo Paralympics and at the national training centre by a two-time Paralympic gold medallist. There was a recent assault by eight hockey players in 2018, and again at the 2023 World Juniors.

If we fail to recognize that abusers come in many forms, we will fail the system, and we will fail our athletes again.

As a final point, we respect the jurisdiction of the provinces and territories. However, if we want safe sport measures to be effective, the federal, provincial and territorial governments will have to join forces and create a national registry of all predators and assailants.

If we have no centralized registry or coordinated registries, then abusers and predators will continue to travel from sport to province to territory and to any role in sport, which will set the stage for more abuse.

To summarize, we are calling for three things: for an investigation to be conducted, for safe sport for all to be the goal, and for there to be a national registry or, at the least, collaboration.

Thank you for your attention.

5 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Karen Vecchio

Thank you very much.

We'll go to our first round of questions, starting with Anna Roberts for six minutes.

5 p.m.

Conservative

Anna Roberts Conservative King—Vaughan, ON

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you very much for speaking to us.

I have a couple of questions, but before I ask my questions I want to ask another thing. I know that the government has given money to ensure that the athletes have an opportunity.... In 2021, they funded the Sport Dispute Resolution Centre. I'm just going to assume here, by listening to the previous witnesses we all heard, that it's not working. I agree with our previous witnesses. The system is broken and it's been broken for too long. I'm ashamed. I'll be honest. I'm totally ashamed that we have not done more to protect our young people.

The two questions I have for you are on this: How do people become safe sport-qualified? What do you think about that? I'll throw that out to both of you.

5 p.m.

As an Individual

François Lemay

Madame Lafrenière, do you want to start?

5 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Coaching Association of Canada

Lorraine Lafrenière

Thank you, Mr. Lemay.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

We have a program, the national coaching certification program, that's funded by the federal, provincial and territorial governments. While it's not perfect, it does focus on ethics. We do have training. It's not mandatory in clubs and organizations across the country. It has a very solid penetration. We have about 50,000 coaches annually who might take one of our workshops, but it's by no means enough, and with that education there's the challenge that Monsieur Lemay brought up, which is the professional standards. It's not about one function, and training and education about one function. It's about the system and the professional standards and expectations across all functions in the organization.

Monsieur Lemay, go ahead.

5 p.m.

As an Individual

François Lemay

Yes, if I may add, it's also a question of time. Sports in Canada are based on volunteers. Between the suppers and the practice, you need to talk to the parents, explain what an abuse case is, what harassment is, what phone number you can use, what can be done, who you can talk to, and sometimes those things are just pushed aside. There's a lot of good faith but sometimes time is missing.

Having professionals, hiring people within clubs to do that, year after year, to repeat that information and be guardians of good faith, would be very helpful. As parents, we're lacking time to manage the sports of our kids.

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Anna Roberts Conservative King—Vaughan, ON

But here's the issue. It's not working. Our children are still getting abused.

5:05 p.m.

As an Individual

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Anna Roberts Conservative King—Vaughan, ON

We have not done them any justice, as we heard from our witnesses, and not just from these two witnesses but from previous witnesses in all sports. The system is broken. They're tired of words. We need to seek action because if we don't seek action, there's going to be more and more brutality, as far as I'm concerned. I'm not trying to be mean, but there's an issue here.

You're talking to me about training and you're talking to me about recertification. What good is recertification, what good is training, if these abusers continue to abuse? Would you not agree—and I'm sorry if I get a little passionate but I'm quite upset about this today—that a registry must be completed so that these predators are put on a registry for the rest of their lives and they don't abuse our children any longer?

5:05 p.m.

As an Individual

François Lemay

I'm not a legal expert but definitely information needs to be shared. I'm not sure if a registry is the appropriate thing. I'm not an expert but definitely.... We have a recent case in Quebec about a basketball coach who went from one organization to another. The information wasn't shared. So we need to find a way, definitely, as Ms. Lafrenière said, to share the information within the sport and with the other sports.

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Anna Roberts Conservative King—Vaughan, ON

That's a criminal offence. If it's a criminal offence, then they should be charged and it should be shared because if they are charged criminally, then everybody has access to that.

5:05 p.m.

As an Individual

François Lemay

That's a very good thing because every year we have to do a criminal record check for every single coach or volunteer who is working with the kids in the organization. So everybody has to have a criminal record check. If you have a criminal record, you can't be a coach. One of my coaches a couple of years ago had a DUI, driving under the influence, but he was able to coach because that's not related to the kids. But if it was anything related to the kids, he wouldn't be able to coach.

So every single year we screen all the coaches we have, but we aren't screening the coaches who are yelling, who are borderline. To have a criminal record means you need to be reported and there's been a police investigation and everything, so that's highly complicated but—

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Anna Roberts Conservative King—Vaughan, ON

I'm sorry to interrupt, but I don't agree. I don't think it's that complicated. What we need to do to sports, whether it's recreational, professional or amateurs.... These are children; they are our future. I think what we need to do is be accountable and put practices in place where we can automatically, without notice, check it out. In private industry.... I come from the financial industry, and I never knew when the inspectors were coming in. I knew that every single day I had to do my job ethically, morally and respectfully.

If we put those practices in place—and this is just one thing that I offer—this could stop the abuse. I'm sorry.

5:05 p.m.

As an Individual

François Lemay

Don't be sorry.

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Karen Vecchio

We all care about this passionately. I get it. I'm going to pass it over to Emmanuella for six minutes.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

Emmanuella Lambropoulos Liberal Saint-Laurent, QC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I would like to thank both of our witnesses for being here with us today.

Mr. Lemay, we have learned a lot of things from witnesses about sport at the national level, but I think you are involved more at the local level.

What have you noticed at the provincial level in terms of abuse? Have you heard of cases? Do you think this is something that needs to be dealt with not just at the national sports team level but at every level? Can you speak a little bit to that experience?