Status of Women Committee on Dec. 1st, 2022

[Lorraine Lafrenière]

When they're removed from their licence to practise, they don't lose the degree from McGill, but they can't practise anymore, and that is what's missing.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

That's where I want to go with this. I'm a teacher by training. In order to become a teacher.... You were talking a lot about professional standards and things such as passing an abuse registry check, for example, and having to take certain courses to be able to do your job. These are things that.... I use teaching as an example because we're working with kids, with many kids who are vulnerable and are from diverse backgrounds. We have certain educational requirements but also professional standards that have to be licensed by an independent body. You used a doctor as an example, and I would use provincial education systems.

Do you think that if there was a separate licensing board it would help provide greater oversight and regulation in sports?

[Lorraine Lafrenière]

Yes. I think there are many ways this could be created. A licensing board would absolutely regulate the ability to practise for all participants.

When I talk about professional standards, professional standards are really what sets the tone for how a person should behave. Predators are so good at grooming people to make them think they're the best person, the pillar of the community, and then it's shades of grey. They groom the gatekeepers, the clubhouse key master, the board members, and they blind them: “Oh, no, no, that's just him. He likes to do X.” That's how predators work. They slowly push the boundaries.

What we need is clear boundaries. If the professional standards are there, then the alarm bells go off much more quickly. Licensing is absolutely one way to achieve that.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you for that, because I was thinking about that. There seem to be constant cases where there's conflict of interest. It's just a massive conflict of interest at all levels.

Everybody who has testified today has spoken about the need for a national judicial inquiry. Would a national judicial inquiry help, for example, what we just discussed? I'm talking about licensing and being able to look at things more closely so that we can deconstruct a system that's clearly unsafe and reconstruct it into something safe.

Do you think a national judicial inquiry would help with that, and if so, how?

[Lorraine Lafrenière]

I'll give you a concrete example of what you just spoke about.

In the Ben Johnson doping scandal—and there were others—they all knew each other. They all had a built-in relationship. They all knew each other. “Oh, no, that person wouldn't do that”, or they had a cone of silence. It was one or the other, but the inquiry brought it to light, removed that from being an acceptable standard and created the independent agency that was charged with monitoring and investigating doping.

So yes, a national inquiry would do that, because it would remove what you aptly described, which is the familiarity we all have with each other in sport that blinds us: “Oh, that is a good person. They would never do that.” Well, that's how predators work. They're good people, because that's their cloak.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Yes, and there's no measure. There's no impartial oversight that's looking over things. It sounds like House of Cards. Would you agree? If one person is caught, there's a whole slew of people implicated, so everybody protects each other. That's what I'm hearing over and over again.

[Lorraine Lafrenière]

Yes. Whether they even realize they're doing that is another question, because predators manipulate everybody around them.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Yes.

[Lorraine Lafrenière]

It's a sick process, and that's why we have to set professional standards in sport. It's the only way you're going to remove or reduce predators from coming into the system.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Thanks very much, Leah.

I have a couple of questions—I'm just looking at the committee—and then I'll share the rest of my time with Michelle. Is that okay with everybody?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Ms. Lafrenière, I'm just looking at this and trying to understand the national coaching certification. Part of your job is doing the safe sport program. Is that correct?

[Lorraine Lafrenière]

Yes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

I tried to go online. When I'm doing research, I like to go online to see what I can do. I tried to see if I can become a coach. I saw that it was basically an online program for safe sport. Is that correct?

[Lorraine Lafrenière]

There are many. There are in-person “Make Ethical Decisions” workshops. Online, they are synchronous—in other words, there's a person online with you—or they're asynchronous e-learning. You would have seen that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

That's excellent.

[Lorraine Lafrenière]

COVID has absolutely pushed us towards the online learning.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Yes. Thanks so much.

I sat on the heritage committee with a few of my colleagues in this room. The Hockey Canada scandal really opened up some doors and thoughts on how everybody is interrelated, which takes me to the coaching association.

Right now, the chair of your board is associated with Hockey Canada. Is that correct?

[Lorraine Lafrenière]

He was a vice-president of Hockey Canada until about 2018.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Is he still associated with Hockey Canada?

[Lorraine Lafrenière]

He is not associated that I know of. It's quite possible he does contract work, but he's not an employee of Hockey Canada.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

I know nothing about this gentleman, and he may be the best guy ever, but I think what we're really seeing are those relationships and that complex web, as many of our athletes have talked about. I've spoken to many people who say that they protect their people, too. That's what they do. They protect their family. A lot of time in sports, it is family. You're not going to tell on your sibling in sport. You're going to protect them.

That's some of my concern when I'm looking at these organizations. I wonder if Gymnastics Canada—which we're hearing hundreds of complaints for—is part of the safe sport mechanism. We're hearing from this group from bobsled—are they part of it? Are the ones actually at the top of these boards teaching these things? At the end of the day, are we going to make any difference?

I just want to pass it over to Michelle, so she can continue with this.

Thanks very much for that clarification.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

Thanks, Madam Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here.

I think what I'd like to dig into, Ms. Lafrenière, is the “not mandatory” part and how you put regulations in place. I understand we're asking for a national judicial inquiry, but I think diving a little bit deeper into the coaching association protocol is really important.

How often is recertification or training required?

[Lorraine Lafrenière]

We would call that maintenance of certification. It is required over a four-year period.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

You can go for four years without having any further updates.