Evidence of meeting #59 for Status of Women in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was victims.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Sergeant Robert Chrismas  As an Individual
Miriam Pomerleau  Director General, Quebec, Crime Stoppers
Maria Mourani  Criminologist, PhD in Sociology and President, Mourani-Criminologie
Mario Catenaccio  As an Individual
Joy Brown  Community Mobilization Unit, Peel Regional Police
Jody Miller  Managing Director, EFRY Hope and Help for Women
Andrea Scott  Counter Exploitation Unit, Winnipeg Police Service

11 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Karen Vecchio

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 59 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on the Status of Women.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of June 23, 2022. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely by using the Zoom application.

I would like to make a few comments for the benefit of the witnesses and members.

Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. For those participating by video conference, click on the microphone icon to activate your mike, and please mute yourself when you're not speaking.

For interpretation for those on Zoom, you have the choice at the bottom of your screen of either floor, English or French. For those in the room, use your earpiece and your desired channel.

All comments should be addressed through the chair. For members in the room, if you wish to speak, please raise your hand, and for those using the Zoom application, please use the Zoom function for that.

In accordance with the committee's routine motion concerning connection tests for witnesses, I am informing the committee that all witnesses appearing virtually have completed the required connection tests in advance of the meeting.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted on Tuesday, February 1, 2022, the committee will resume its study of human trafficking of women, girls and gender-diverse people.

Before we welcome our witnesses, I would like to provide this trigger warning: This will be a very difficult study. We'll be discussing experiences related to abuse. This may be triggering to viewers, members or staff with similar experiences. If you feel distressed or if you need help, please advise the clerk.

Now I would like to welcome our first witnesses on our panel. I would like to welcome Staff Sergeant Robert Chrismas, who is appearing as an individual. We have Miriam Pomerleau, who is director general for Quebec of Crime Stoppers; and, from Mourani-Criminologie, we have Maria Mourani, criminologist and president.

You will also be speaking, so thank you so much.

We're going to start this off with Staff Sergeant Chrismas.

You have five minutes for your opening comments. When you see me starting to whirl my arms, please try to get it done within the next 15 seconds.

Mr. Chrismas, you go first.

11 a.m.

Staff Sergeant Robert Chrismas As an Individual

Thank you.

First of all, I'd like to thank all of you members of the committee for your public service. I'd like thank all members of the committee and all the witnesses for all the important work you're doing for the status of women and for trafficked women in Canada.

Where do I start? I'm having flashbacks to my three-minute thesis competition at the University of Manitoba back when I did my dissertation, but I'll see what I can touch on in five minutes, and then I'll be open to questions afterwards.

I've been in policing for 34 years. I started in recruit class in Winnipeg, Manitoba, during the aboriginal justice inquiry. In my 34 years, I've seen a lot of change, a lot of evolution in social issues and a lot of change in the way that we approach them. One unfortunate scourge that we've made some headway on but on which I think we still have a long way to go is in the trafficking of women and the exploitation of children.

When it came time to select a topic for my Ph.D. research in 2016, I thought back to my career, what I felt most passionate and challenged about and where I might be able to make the most headway, and I chose to go back to the work that I'd done in counter-exploitation 10 years prior.

In the study that I did in 2016, I tried to take a broader approach, include more voices than had been included in all of the previous research that I'd found and really go from the ground and talk to this wider selection of voices to find out what I could do to possibly, by raising their voices, make some headway on this issue. Those voices included politicians, political leaders, policy-makers, influencers, people working in government and non-government organizations, and then, of course, the most important of all, the trafficked women who trusted me with their stories to take forward. I take that as a sacred commitment to try to properly represent what they told me in venues like this.

In the end, given my short time to speak here to start off with, I want to say that I took a lot of my findings, a lot of them oriented around the structural violence and the structural oppression that a lot of women and children face in Canada that depreciate their resilience and their resistance to being caught up in the sex industry, and I boiled all of those findings and recommendations down into a table in the back of this book that I wrote with the University of Toronto Press. I'm bringing this table to your attention because I think it would be of great value to everyone on this committee to have a look at this book and the table in the back, where I've spelled out specific findings and recommendations.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Karen Vecchio

Can you provide us with the title of the book and the name of the author?

11:05 a.m.

S/Sgt Robert Chrismas

Yes. It's Sex Industry Slavery: Protecting Canada's Youth. It was published in 2020.

The topics I covered and my findings around this resulted in recommendations that are tangible and specific. They're on vulnerability in the sex industry; the intersectional challenges that many women and children face, largely often due to the social conditions they're born into; the indigenous needs; intersectionality; prevention; and collaboration and coordination between agencies. I've found that there are a great many ways and opportunities for us to collaborate and get better efficiency in the systems that exist. They also include new resources, training and education, policy, and more of what's already effective.

I've brought several copies of it. I came on short notice to this hearing, but I grabbed what I had on my shelf, and I'd like to donate them to the committee. I hope some of you will look at them.

One of the largest findings that I've made is the importance of storytelling. Having done my Ph.D. on peace and conflict, I see the importance of storytelling as a tool for peacebuilding by affecting the public discourse, the public narrative and the culture of our nation around these issues. To try to further that, I've written two stories. One of them is called The River of Tears, with DIO Press, and another one with DIO Press is called Dream Catcher. I'm going to donate those to the committee. I'm hoping that some of you might have a look. It's the story of a young girl who was trafficked in the sex industry.

Finally, I want to mention a book I wrote with Dr. Laura Reimer on reconciliation in Canada: Our Shared Future: Windows Into Canada's Reconciliation. This was made with contributed chapters from leaders, many of whom were indigenous, on their initiatives around truth and reconciliation in Canada.

With that, I think my time is up.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Karen Vecchio

Thank you so much.

We're now going to turn it over to Miriam Pomerleau.

You have the floor for five minutes. Please go ahead.

11:05 a.m.

Miriam Pomerleau Director General, Quebec, Crime Stoppers

Madam Chair, hon. members, thank you for the invitation to appear.

My name is Miriam Pomerleau and I am the Director General of Échec au crime, the Quebec counterpart of Crime Stoppers.

In carrying out its mission, Échec au crime operates a telephone service for collecting information about criminal activities, in which it protects the complete anonymity of callers who make reports. The organization is independent of police services, but it collaborates with them by providing them with criminal intelligence that helps them work toward solving cases.

Échec au crime has been in existence for 25 years in Quebec. You will understand that I am not in a position to give you statistics of the same type that a women's crisis centre or shelter could. However, our organization is a very sensitive barometer of crime trends. You can see the evidence of this in the brief I have submitted that you will be able to read later.

What is obvious is that victims of sexual exploitation are staying silent and are themselves choosing not to receive the help that the system wants to give them. They are conditioned to do this: if they talk, they die.

The most effective way to keep them in servitude is drugs. That method is used to try to alter victims' judgment so they are simply desensitized, until they become mere commodities in the sex trade. The organizers and traffickers want their prey to be fragile. When they are using, they are easy to control. Drug trafficking is therefore directly associated with human trafficking, as shown in the percentage of reports received.

The traffickers' preferred drugs are opioids and psychotropic drugs.

One that comes particularly to mind is carfentanyl, a single dose of which is 10,000 times stronger than a dose of morphine. When cut with other drugs, because traffickers don't want to kill their victims immediately, carfentanyl creates almost instantaneous dependancy. The traffickers are thus able to dominate their merchandise: the girls and women by way of whom they make their profits.

Ketamine and GHB create a dissociative state. They produce a feeling of detachment from the body and lack of awareness that allows victims to accumulate traumas. The victims are in a state in which they accept absolutely everything that may be done to them.

There are also abductions. Women and girls are kidnapped, given a fictitious identity, and forced to offer sexual services. Gradual isolation is the most common method. Young women with a history of drug use are persuaded to have sexual relations for money, to pay their drug debts. They are recruited in bars, schools, youth centres, addiction help centres, bus stations, train stations and malls.

Street gangs have come up with a new approach by using the short-term accommodations offered on Airbnb. This makes the process of marketing sex even more anonymous. The victims go to meet clients in the rented accommodations and the high degree of privacy enables the traffickers to hide in the shadows and keep the money generated by the sexual services.

Unilingual 12- to 17‑year-old francophone girls from Quebec are highly prized in the rest of Canada. In Ontario, Alberta and British Columbia, the demand is very strong. A lot of young women from Quebec find themselves in Ontario in a very active market, which is explained by the great ease with which the border can be crossed by land and the fact that section 65 of the Ontario Children's Law Reform Act allows young people who are aged 16 or older to withdraw from parental control.

This is a recurring problem. To eliminate it, interprovincial agreements would have to be put in place. Quebec police should have pick‑up warrants that are bilingual and contain a non-compellable statement saying that they can be executed everywhere in Canada.

In its brief, Échec au crime makes two recommendations.

On March 15, the Quebec National Assembly adopted a motion stating that rape drugs are a scourge and detection tests must be made more available in hospitals and, gradually, in pharmacies. The authorities at the top levels are waking up now, in 2023, 30 years after the psychotropic drugs used to beat and rape victims and keep them in a state of submission started being illegally marketed. This is not just inexcusable; it is inadequate. The shortage of statistics about this issue is directly linked to the shortage of people who can do the testing. That motion stands as the evidence.

Alco Prevention Canada offers reliable tests in the form of bracelets and coasters for detecting GHB and ketamine, but these products must be bought; they are not free.

This explains our first recommendation: it is imperative that a massive awareness campaign be launched to require that bars, hotels, restaurants and the organizers of big outside events offer free access to GHB and ketamine detection tests. The need is glaringly obvious. This is happening now.

Our second recommendation is this.

As the mission of Échec au crime indicates, we are dedicated to public participation. Inspired by the philosophy of Truckers Against Trafficking Canada, we recommend that a program be created to fund organizations that work to develop groups composed of members of the public whose role would be to monitor the ground transportation transfer points and work with provincial and municipal governments. These organizations could offer sponsorships to large Canadian companies that provide bus and rail passenger transportation services in exchange for training sessions for the companies' drivers and personnel, to help them detect human trafficking.

There are tremendous numbers of people who want to make a difference, so let's give them an opportunity to do it.

Thank you.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Karen Vecchio

Thank you so much, and I'm sure we'll have lots of questions for you today as well.

I'm now going to pass it over to Maria for the next five minutes.

Maria, you have the floor for five minutes.

11:10 a.m.

Maria Mourani Criminologist, PhD in Sociology and President, Mourani-Criminologie

Good morning, Madam Chair and hon. members. I am very happy to be with you today.

Since 2016, I have led a criminology firm that does research, designs prevention tools and offers counseling and forensic expertise services. In the area of human trafficking, I am fortunate to have the opportunity to meet with victims, but also with traffickers and pimps. This gives me a comprehensive view of the phenomenon I will be speaking to you about today. I am going to focus on trafficking for the purpose of sexual exploitation.

In Canada, human trafficking is largely an internal phenomenon. A majority of the girls who are exploited are Canadians who are moved from province to province or city to city. That is the most common form of trafficking in Canada. Nonetheless, there are obviously also non-Canadian women.

Before going more deeply into the subject during the question period, when I will be very happy to answer your questions, I would like to use the five minutes I have right now to address a few very powerful and widespread myths that somewhat obscure our vision of sexual exploitation.

One of the myths we encounter a lot these days is that the Protection of Communities and Exploited Persons Act makes prostituted individuals criminals and makes the practice itself more dangerous. To summarize, people say that targeting the purchase of sexual services would be a bad thing. In my opinion, that is completely false.

That act, which I believe is a modern one, is based on the right to live with dignity and equality, and rests on the principle that no one may buy a human being. In reality, the act protects prostituted individuals by giving them a new status, as victims. This means that they may report a situation to the police. Unfortunately, some victims do not do that, and not because they are afraid of the police. That is another myth: people think that prostituted individuals are afraid of being treated like criminals. That is false, because this act has expressly decriminalized solicitation. Before, it was the act of solicitation that was considered to be criminal. That is no longer the case now.

In Canada at present, we have a modern law that places us in the ranks of countries that most respect human rights. Under this law, it is the pimps and "prostitutors" who are regarded as criminals.

The prostitutors are the ones who determine what will be put on the market. That is exactly the thing: it is a market that operates like all other markets, based on supply and demand. In Canada at present, the market is composed of teenagers and young adults. A majority of prostitutors are men, but we should mention that not all men use prostituted women. It is estimated that between 11% and 12% of men in the country have been to a prostituted woman at least once. So it is not all men. It is wrong to think that a lot of men do it. It is certain men who go to prostituted individuals.

These prostitutors create a market that the pimps supply for them. Here, it is a market composed of teenagers and young adults. Between the ages of 12 and 22, a person is considered to be a very good commodity. Starting at 23, 24 or 25, it's still okay, but someone over the age of 25 is considered to be too old, in the market. That is the situation in the market.

I will conclude by raising a very important point: we have to strengthen the law we have put in place, to enable the police to do investigations. It is extremely difficult at present to conduct investigations.

I am going to stop there, but I will have other points to discuss with you afterward.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Karen Vecchio

Perfect. We'll make sure that you have that opportunity. Thank you very much.

What we'll be doing is starting with a round of questions.

To anyone who heard the squeaking, I'm sorry about that. I had no idea.

11:15 a.m.

Bloc

Andréanne Larouche Bloc Shefford, QC

I'm sorry, Madam Chair, but the interpretation is not working now.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Karen Vecchio

How is it now? Can you hear me now? Fantastic.

What we'll be doing is starting our six-minute rounds of questions. We'll be going around from party to party.

We're going to start with Dominique. You have six minutes.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Dominique Vien Conservative Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Good morning, Ms. Pomerleau and Mrs. Mourani. Good morning, Mr. Chrismas. Welcome to our committee, which is examining a subject today that is not an easy one. I will not expound on that.

Mrs. Mourani, I am happy to see you here today. You didn't have time to talk to us about investigations. I would like to give you a bit of time to explain why they are so difficult to do.

11:20 a.m.

Criminologist, PhD in Sociology and President, Mourani-Criminologie

Maria Mourani

I can tell you what I hear on the ground. When investigations relate to pimps, it works; the police have techniques to be able to do those investigations. However, when investigations involve prostitutors, it is extremely complicated to prove the exchange of services for money. In fact, the police will sometimes use double agents to investigate. At present, some people are even mounting challenges based on the fact that there were double agents. So the question of whether it is legitimate to use double agents is being reopened.

Essentially, it is extremely difficult to show that there was a purchase of sexual services. The police have to use double agents. They have to be able to observe a particular transaction several times, but it is very difficult to do it in massage parlours, for example, which are brothels, because the transaction takes place in a room and the owner of the establishment doesn't touch the money. The police are therefore unable to see whether money really changes hands. It is extremely complex.

As a result, we need to look at how we can give the police more tools. For that, I don't know whether it would be enough to amend the law or we should instead look into police practices. It's up to you to decide.

The other problem is that the prostituted individuals or individuals who are trapped in these systems don't know that they are protected by the law. They really think that if they make a report, they might suffer the consequences. Information in this regard is severely lacking.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Dominique Vien Conservative Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC

My impression is that this scourge is so widespread that I don't know what can be done to stem it.

Ms. Pomerleau, you were telling us about detection. I don't know whether I understood what you were saying correctly.

You made a connection between drug trafficking and human trafficking. If the person were not drugged, she would be more likely to have the judgment needed in order to call an organization like yours.

When you talk about detection, what are you referring to, exactly? Are you thinking about testing at major sports events, for example?

11:20 a.m.

Director General, Quebec, Crime Stoppers

Miriam Pomerleau

It means looking for the potential victim at the source, before the situation becomes extremely traumatic. We have to act in the hot spots where it is primarily happening, whether that is in hotels or in bars.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Dominique Vien Conservative Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC

Give us an example, Ms. Pomerleau, so we can understand how it might work. Give us a scenario.

11:20 a.m.

Director General, Quebec, Crime Stoppers

Miriam Pomerleau

Think of a minor who meets someone who is going to manipulate her, for sexual purposes, very obviously, who will probably become her pimp. Often, he puts her under a yoke by pretending to become her husband. The minor becomes inherently tied to him and ceases to exist. It starts somewhere.

Detection tests have to be made available free of charge. Right now, they cost money. People don't have access to detection tests for the GHB or hard drugs that contribute to the girls being put in a state of submission. These tests are not even available in hospitals in Quebec, or availability is very limited. Drugs of this type stay in the blood for about 12 hours.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Dominique Vien Conservative Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC

That's not a long time.

11:20 a.m.

Director General, Quebec, Crime Stoppers

Miriam Pomerleau

So we have to do something about this.

Psychotropic drugs have been on the market for a long time. It will soon be 30 years. I don't understand why we haven't already put some thought into this, when people on the ground are suffering the consequences.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Dominique Vien Conservative Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC

I would like to address another thing with you. We don't have a lot of time and that's a bit unfortunate.

You talked about the police's inability to do anything because of how laws and regulations apply differently from one province to another. I'm not sure that I properly understood what you were saying. I would like you to come back to that a bit and explain for us what the problem is.

11:20 a.m.

Director General, Quebec, Crime Stoppers

Miriam Pomerleau

I can clarify the situation.

Take the example of a 17‑year-old girl who is in a group home, who runs away and crosses the Ontario border with her trafficker. Once they are in Ontario, even if a police officer has a pick‑up warrant from the DYP to pick her up and bring her back, they can't do anything. If she is questioned there and says she is not in danger of being killed, we can't go and get her. That too makes no sense.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Dominique Vien Conservative Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC

Thank you.

Mr. Chrismas, what do you think about the situations the other two witnesses talked about? First, they referred to women who don't dare to file a report or talk. Second, how would you answer Ms. Pomerleau regarding the inability to go and bring back a girl—because these are often girls—in another province?

What should be done? What isn't working? As parliamentarians, what can we do?

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Karen Vecchio

Actually, you're out of time.

Mr. Chrismas, I'll give you probably 15 seconds to try to get an answer in, and then we'll switch over and hopefully some of your answers will get worked in there.

Sorry; it's 15 seconds.

11:25 a.m.

S/Sgt Robert Chrismas

Can I have one minute?

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Karen Vecchio

I can't give you one minute.

I know we'll get back to these questions, so, Mr. Chrismas, keep that on there. That question will come back up. I'm almost promising it.

Marc Serré, I'm passing it over to you.