Status of Women Committee on April 17th, 2023

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

I'm wondering if the interpretation has been clicked on. It's at the bottom, depending on what computer you have. When it comes to interpretation, there will be English, French or floor. If you could check there, there should be some options.

[Cst Joy Brown]

Thank you. I just put it on.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

You got it? Okay.

I suspended, so Andréanne, I'm going to give you that time back to ask Joy those questions.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I'll briefly go over my question once again, Ms. Brown. I was saying that we've heard a lot about how victims mistrust the system. They feel that there isn't enough government action to protect them. Quebec's report on rebuilding trust, called "Rebâtir la confiance", mentions the use of e‑bracelets.

I'd like to know whether e‑bracelets might help victims feel they are protected from their perpetrators if they report them?

[Cst Joy Brown]

Definitely. I think that Andrea spoke to it as well. That, definitely, is something that would be helpful.

I want to speak to the lack of trust. I know that oftentimes traffickers will create some fear in the victim to come to law enforcement. We, here in Peel, have some wonderful community partners who have been working at this for a very long time. I know that it takes a long time to build that trust or it takes an individual numerous interactions with police in order to be able to build that trust. I think that's a very important aspect of this whole thing. Once you build that trust, it gives them the opportunity to actually come forward and report.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you very much, Ms. Brown.

I'd just like to mention in passing, given that you couldn't hear the interpretation earlier, that I, like my colleague, want to congratulate you on your award and tell you how enjoyable it was to meet you last week.

I'll move things along quickly, because I don't know how much speaking time I have left.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

You have 30 seconds left.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

In that case, we can return to this in the second round of questions. But I would nevertheless like to ask the witnesses to think about the importance of better coordinating the efforts of the various levels of government, the people working on the ground or even certain departments, to combat human trafficking and sexual exploitation. I'll ask my question in the next round.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Thank you so much.

We're now going to pass it to Leah Gazan.

Leah, you have six minutes.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you so much, Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses for being here today.

My first question is for Sergeant Scott.

Several concerns have been raised by family members of missing and murdered indigenous women and girls and 2-spirit people about the Winnipeg Police Service's failure to demonstrate being—

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Can you stop? Leah, I know this is really important for you to get on the record. Perhaps you could slow it down just to ensure that interpretation gets it.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

—trauma-informed, especially in regard to press conferences and when the family is informed of a loved one being found.

As an example, Markus Chambers, chair of the Winnipeg Police Board, was quoted in The Free Press in December 2022 regarding a decision by the police not to search the Prairie Green landfill for the remains of Morgan Harris, Marcedes Myran and Buffalo Woman. He stated, “We know the Indigenous community is not satisfied with that. So, it's up to them now to reach out to the levels of government...so that it can be determined what those next steps are.”

This is in spite of the fact that findings from the Winnipeg Police Service original feasibility study were disputed by forensic experts, family members, indigenous leaders and family advocates like Cambria Harris who, in the Globe and Mail article in December 6, 2022, stated, “I should not have to stand here today...and beg and beg, so that you will find and bring our loved ones home.”

Lucy Beardy, sister of Linda Beardy, in response to police conduct informing her about her sister, stated in a CBC interview on April 7, 2023, that the Winnipeg Police Service “took advantage of my grief, how overwhelmed I was, my vulnerability. I feel like they betrayed the trust of the family. I felt like I was ambushed, like I was set up for this. They didn't take into account any of what I had to say, my wishes.”

There have also been concerns raised about the over- and under-policing by the Winnipeg Police Service. Many have raised concerns about the shooting death of Eishia Hudson by a police officer. This brought sharp criticisms of both the Law Enforcement Review Agency, which does not have any civilian oversight, and the IIU, which is composed of former police officers.

For example, the Honourable Murray Sinclair doubts that the IIU can properly investigate incidents because it lacks both transparency and independence. Sinclair stated in a CBC interview, “I don't have a lot of faith in the Independent Investigation Unit that's in place right now to look into police officer conduct. I can't think of an instance where they've truly done a transparent thorough investigation that has convinced me...that their decision is the right one in the circumstances.” He also said, “They have a vested interest in ensuring that they don't tick off the city police.”

I share that because, as we know, the Honourable Murray Sinclair is probably the most beloved legal mind in the country, and Constable Joy Brown spoke about trust.

My first question for you, Sergeant Scott, is this: What are the police going to do to make sure vulnerable people are prioritized in search efforts going forward?

[Sgt Andrea Scott]

I can only speak to the operational level of what I see on a daily basis between missing persons and counter-exploitation, and I can tell you that all the reports we receive are triaged and put through our risk assessment tool. This is unique to our service. It's very beneficial in recognizing who needs our services the most, and we're able to put the resources toward the folks who we recognize are the most vulnerable within our community—

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

I'm sorry, Sergeant.

We know, for example, that the former minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations called Winnipeg “ground zero” for murdered and missing indigenous women and girls. We know the vulnerable groups, including kids aging out of care. We also know there are places in Winnipeg that are well known in the community to be trafficking indigenous women and girls and 2-spirit people.

What intelligence do you have in place to track those locations?

[Sgt Andrea Scott]

A lot of the information we receive is from our frontline members, but we rely on our community partners.

We've recently paired with Bear Clan. Bear Clan has that close relationship within the community, and they're able to share information with us. There is a mistrust by community members. We recognize that, so we rely on the community members to provide that information to us in order for us to act on it.

A lot of it is also intelligence-led. We're online, we're proactive and we're looking for the exploiters of those women.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

I have a question in regard to Buffalo Woman. It's tragic. She is one of the three women we're searching for in the landfill. Her identity has yet to be determined.

Given the fact that we know there's a high number of human trafficking cases, I'm wondering if the Winnipeg Police Service has communicated with other jurisdictions to attempt to determine her identity. It seems like nobody in the community recognizes her clothes or has come forward. I'm wondering if the investigation is going outside the province in a concerted effort to find out who she is.

[Sgt Andrea Scott]

That investigation is with our homicide investigators. It would be offside for me to speak about whomever they have reached out to.

However, I know that is a practice. We often go outside of the community, in a broader sense, to reach all sorts of community members and potentially family.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Thanks so much.

We're now going to start our five-minute round, and I'm going to pass it over to Michelle Ferreri.

Michelle, you have five minutes.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you again to all of the witnesses for being here at the status of women committee as we look into human trafficking.

I want to start, if I can, with.... Can I call you Mario?

[Mario Catenaccio]

Yes.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

Thank you, Mario.

I think we were all a bit shocked when you shared the story of your own attack. I looked around the room, and there was some shock and awe that you too were at risk.

One thing we've been hearing across the board when we've been studying this is on the cost of living.

One person who works in this industry said this to me, and it really stuck: What we need to provide to victims is to replace the core need that the trafficker is providing. That is not always money; that is sometimes intimacy. It can be a whole host of things.

From a police perspective, what do you have in terms of working with another organization to help that victim go into the support mode?

As I said earlier in the other round of witnesses, I believe this is a three-pronged approach. You have prevention and intervention and then support. It's the aftermath of not getting them recirculated back into that lifestyle. It's replacing that core need that the trafficker is giving.

What do you think needs to be done there?

[Mario Catenaccio]

The example that I used—I believe the officer from Peel mentioned it as well, with Timea Nagy—was Timea's Cause. I'm sure there are other organizations that do similar work.

What she would do is to take that victim and build that trust and bond. As a survivor herself, she's able to relate to them. They would trust her more because of that relatability. She would help them transition from that life in which they had become dependent upon their traffickers for companionship, food, love and everything. She would transition them to the point where they could move on their own and take that first step to being independent again.

A lot of that comes down to funding from the government to help others transition to that point.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

Thank you for that.

If could, I will jump to Constable Brown.

I think it was you who said that human trafficking presents as something else. Was it you who said that?

[Cst Joy Brown]

Yes, that was me. Oftentimes, it will present as something else.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

I think that's really interesting, because the stats and the data around this are so challenging. We know there's an intersectionality here that comes with human trafficking, whether it's drugs, fraud, etc.

For the stats and the lucrative notion of what human trafficking is, if nobody had the chance to read The Globe and Mail article that featured Timea's story, I'll give you an idea of it. If the john has 40 females, then the daily profit is $36,000. The weekly profit is $252,000, and the annual profit is $13,104,000. You can quickly see how lucrative this industry is and why it is so hard to stop it.

My question to you would be, if it's presenting as something else, could we create something in that national database—which is part of your recommendation, which I think is critical—that says they were taken in on charges of fraud or drug trafficking but there was indication as well of human trafficking?

It's so hard for the victims to admit that, right? There's a lot of reluctance there.