Status of Women Committee on Feb. 15th, 2022

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Building on that, individuals with precarious immigration status, for example, often don't qualify for programs. Does this impact the ability of women or diverse-gendered individuals to leave relationships? Does being disqualified from certain social support programs limit their ability to do that?

[Chantal Arseneault]

Yes, exactly. One of the most difficult challenges that immigrant women face is that they don't know the country or the language and they are not yet entirely integrated. Their spouse is exercising coercive control over them and telling them a load of things, for example, that they will have no income. That is really a mountain to climb, for them. If we could assure them that they would have the financial resources to get away from this violence with their children and to find affordable housing, certainly that would be a determining factor in regaining their autonomy. That is undeniable.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

I asked that because I know that even for the Canada child benefit, depending on immigration status, there are individuals who can't even qualify for it, which is concerning when we're talking about poverty being a factor that forces individuals to stay in situations of violence.

With that in mind, we know that in organizations providing support to women who are experiencing gender-based and intimate partner violence there have been some discussions about looking at providing services and programs through an intersectional lens to respond to different barriers that women or individuals of diverse genders face. Why is using an intersectional lens so critical for addressing this issue for all women and diverse-gendered individuals?

[Louise Riendeau]

We know that all of the oppressive acts that women suffer have to be taken into consideration if we want to help them take steps to protect themselves. It is also essential to take the particular repercussions that certain decisions or certain programs may have for them into account. We said earlier that if we take the approach of criminalizing coercive control, as we hope, consideration will have to be given to the situations of Indigenous women, who are over-represented among women who are incarcerated and are themselves accused of using violence, when, in many cases, they were only defending themselves. That will have to be taken into consideration, and an intersectional perspective applied.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Can I ask a question about that, building on criminalization? One of the questions I asked in the last panel was on criminalizing behaviours. We know that penitentiaries are riddled with anti-social behaviour and violence. How does placing people in situations that are violent and, quite frankly, anti-social help resolve an individual's issues with violence?

[Louise Riendeau]

I think I have understood your question.

The reason we advocate using the justice system in cases of violence is that we think a clear message has to be sent to society. Many spouses of women in our shelters feel completely entitled to use violence. We have to send a clear message to offenders that our society does not tolerate that behaviour. We have to look for solutions to educate these people and get them to make changes in their behaviour. We think the message has to be unequivocal.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Awesome. Thank you so much.

We're now going to move on to our second round. The only thing is that we are getting very tight on time, and we have about two minutes of committee business that we need to do. With the time being 5:21, we have eight minutes to do this, so I'm going to ask each party to just put forward one question. Of course, if it's a long question, you can ask for the documentation, because I know there are a lot of things that we do want from that.

I'm going to pass this over to Laila.

Laila, you have one question.

If we can, let's just recognize that we have eight minutes for all the work to get done. Thanks.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Thank you, everyone.

In order for coercive control to be considered a crime, does it have to be accompanied by some form of physical violence? For example, can simply taking away your spouse's credit card be considered to be coercive conduct?

[Louise Riendeau]

The nature of coercive control consists of using various strategies at once. I don't think we are talking about coercive control when there is just one controlling act. That is not the nature of spousal violence.

We observe that spouses will use all sorts of strategies, which can be economic or consist of threatening or of isolating the victims. You have to look at all of these behaviours.

At present, these behaviours do not constitute crimes in themselves, and that is why women who would like to file a report are not able to obtain the assistance they would need.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

We're now going to move it over to Jenna.

Jenna, I stole all your time, so you get a question. Go for it.

[Jenna Sudds, Liberal, Kanata—Carleton, ON]

Thank you.

As part of our study, we are looking at the barriers facing women who are seeking to flee the perpetrators. We've listed specifically and have spoken a bit today about financial, social and coercive abuse and immigration factors.

From your purview, what are we missing? What are the other factors that we're not talking about today that women are facing and that we need to start talking about and address through this work?

[Louise Riendeau]

When we talk about access to income, we also mean access to jobs that offer equitable pay. So it is a matter of pay equity. We also have to encourage women to diversify the occupations they are going to work in, in order to have adequate pay and sources of validation.

We can also look at how workplaces can help women get away from a violent situation. The Canadian Labour Congress has done a lot of work on this. In Quebec, we have a campaign called Milieux de travail alliés contre la violence conjugale that urges employers to provide information to victims, to support them, and to accommodate them if they need to ask for help and take leave, for example.

These are all among the conditions that could facilitate and could remove barriers for victims who are trying to escape from a violent partner.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Awesome. Thank you so much.

Caroline, I know you've just joined us now. We have time for one question, so I'll pass the floor to you.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I really like what I am hearing today. It is very enlightening.

I would like to ask the witnesses, to conclude, whether they have something to add about foreseeability, for example. I would like them to talk to us about how foreseeability can help women feel safe and encourage them to leave a violent situation.

[Chantal Arseneault]

It can make a whole change in these women's lives: it can provide them with security, once and for all. That is what changes like that can do.

Security exists at several levels. We talked about financial security, and security to escape coercive control. There is also the security of knowing that the social message is being sent loud and clear, that it is legitimate to be assertive and to leave a violent relationship and that you will get support from all of the actors in the system.

By giving women assurance for themselves and their children, foreseeability can certainly save lives.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Thank you so much.

I'm now going to pass it over to you, Leah, for your last question.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you so much, Chair.

Building on my last set of questions, you indicated that some individuals think they have a legitimate right to use violence and that we need to send a clearer message that we do not tolerate violence.

In terms of incarcerating individuals who use violence, I'm wondering what the recidivism rate is. How many people commit violence, go to jail, come out and reoffend? Are we actually resolving the behaviour by using the penal system?

[Louise Riendeau]

I don't have any statistics on that subject, but I would say that the sentences imposed for spousal violence are under provincial authority, for the most part. So they are not long terms of incarceration. Rather, they often involve probation or conditional discharges.

For the moment, I don't think a majority of these men are being incarcerated. So we have to continue to look for ways to get them to change their behaviour.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Thank you so much.

I'd really like to thank Chantal and Louise for joining us today. It's been wonderful having you on this panel.

I would ask you to leave the meeting, if you don't mind. We do have about two minutes of committee business. Thank you once again from all of us.

Thank you so much, everybody. I know it's really hard when we're on a time crunch.

There has been a person who has come to the attention of the clerk who would like to put forward a brief. The only problem is that the person is not able to do a written brief. The clerk has offered, with her willingness, to take a phone call and get it all written down—transcribed into both French and English—so that we have a copy of the brief.

I'm looking for support from the committee.

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Madam Clerk, you have the grounds to go ahead and take that brief.

Thank you so much, everybody. I know it's been a little goofy and a little hard. As you know, our time is committed from 3:30 to 5:30, and because there are other meetings going on, votes and all those things, we'll just get to work as soon as we can once everything is done. I know that we have awesome witnesses coming forward.

On behalf of the people in the room, thank you so much to all of you guys for being great committee members.

We will see you again on Friday.