Evidence of meeting #67 for Status of Women in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was human.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Michelle Ferreri Conservative Peterborough—Kawartha, ON
I'd ask your personal opinion. Seeing what you see, do you think the age to use social media is too young?
Executive Director, Action Coalition on Human Trafficking Alberta Association
I can't imagine a scenario in which we can control that, so I'm not sure if the question would warrant further action. Does that make sense?
Conservative
Michelle Ferreri Conservative Peterborough—Kawartha, ON
Yes. I think you can absolutely control it. If you have legislation in place, you change the age and parents are better educated.
This is a post today from Adam Grant. He said:
The earlier kids get smartphones, the worse their mental health as adults.
New study, 27k+ ppl: owning a smartphone younger predicts lower self-worth, motivation & resilience—and more sadness, anxiety & aggression—especially for girls.
I put that on the record, because it's something I think is a major contributor when we're having these conversations.
I want to touch on something my colleague Ms. Roberts was trying to delve into. She was doing a pretty good job, to be honest with you, but these are tough conversations and we have to scratch below the surface to have an honest conversation about a lot of these things.
My question to you is—and I'll go to Ms. Price, because you're in the room—given a choice, if somebody doesn't believe they are worthy of something more.... Choosing to be a sex worker I have no judgment on one way or another, but do you think that is really what the first choice would be if given the opportunity for education or another job?
Sometimes, we have people who choose minimum wage jobs because they have no other choice. Do you think sex work is a choice?
I know it ties into your sensationalizing comment, but do you think, in a room of women who are sex workers, they would say, “Yes, this was my first and only choice, and my passion to fulfill in life”?
Executive Director, Action Coalition on Human Trafficking Alberta Association
I can answer the first part of that question. The last question, I'm unable to answer, because I'm not a sex worker in that room with other sex workers answering it.
I would say that a wonderful way to answer that question would be to provide that level of access to education, affordable housing, safe choices and a reasonable living income to be able to then see what happens and see what people's decisions are.
Conservative
Michelle Ferreri Conservative Peterborough—Kawartha, ON
You don't know what your worth is if you don't know what your worth is. A lot of that is an intersectionality of income, circumstance and poverty, which we know. Thanks for that thoughtful answer.
The last question I would ask you is about empowering survivors. You touched on that.
If you could give one recommendation of the key thing we could do to empower survivors to break free, what do you think that would be?
Executive Director, Action Coalition on Human Trafficking Alberta Association
It would be to ensure that when they reach out, they're listened to, and how they define their experience is listened to as truth, not as something to be interpreted through our own value systems, concerns and biases. I think by ensuring that the first point of contact—reaching out for services, wanting to report an abuser, just seeking safe housing—is thoughtfully designed to be trauma-informed and person-centred....
When they reach that point, the systemic legislation and other forces surrounding it should ensure that the individual isn't penalized for coming forward, such as deportation.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Karen Vecchio
Now I'll go over to Marc Serré.
Marc, you have the floor.
Are you going to give it to Jenna? I have Marc next on the list. You guys decide who you want to do it.
We have Marc for five minutes.
Liberal
Marc Serré Liberal Nickel Belt, ON
Thank you, Madam Chair.
My question would be first for Madam Wu. We talked a lot about data collection or the lack of, and no definitions. Can you help us define that more, some of that bad data collection and what we can do, as a federal government, to ensure that we do this in a better way, because right now government data is not really good?
You mentioned community, and Ms. Stone also mentioned this. Can you start off, Ms. Wu?
Executive Director, SWAN Vancouver, Canadian Alliance for Sex Work Law Reform
Sure. I think it comes back to the discussion about definitions. The way that human trafficking is currently defined is so overbroad and ambiguous that we are not able to actually tailor solutions to the actual problems. We cannot have a cookie-cutter solution that will fit for all of these different issues that are often being caught in the net of human trafficking. I think it really lies in the definition, because how can we find or collect reliable statistics without really knowing what it is we are looking at?
I'm sorry. Does that answer your question?
Liberal
Marc Serré Liberal Nickel Belt, ON
Ms. Stone, you mentioned the definition aspect and the data, and that skewing our complete support and work. Can you enlighten us on what recommendations you would have for us as a federal committee?
Project Manager, Yukon Status of Women Council
Definitely. As so many before us today have said, it's really meaningfully including people who trade sex and people who are survivors of trafficking in your development of a unanimous definition of trafficking. Again, as Angela was saying, this overbroad definition that's including multiple types of violence outside trafficking is what's informing our current systems, and that's unreliable data. I think it is important to recognize that this has been finally recognized at a federal level.
When we look at the national action plan and gender-based violence federal government website, we see that even they are now formally recognizing the lack of disaggregated or reliable data, especially in rural and remote northern communities. A quote, verbatim, from the government's website for NAP says, “The statistics...reflect the national picture, however, instances of [gender-based violence] vary across Canada. There are challenges and gaps in collecting consistent and detailed data”. It continues on to say, “A further challenge is the lack of data to support the use of an intersectional lens, which recognizes that people often experience multiple oppressions due to the combined effects of systemic discrimination”.
It's within reach for the government to dive further into their own recognition of this lack of data and to look at, again, including multiple community partners to ensure that the data moving forward is more reliably informed.
Liberal
Marc Serré Liberal Nickel Belt, ON
Thank you. I'm sorry, but I have limited time.
Ms. Price, you talked about research and other...but I just want you to talk a bit about the importance of listening to survivors and to community organizations versus some governments or agencies that will project their own biases into this conversation and pass judgment.
Can you talk a bit about how that is affecting the conversation, this not listening to organizations and survivors?
Executive Director, Action Coalition on Human Trafficking Alberta Association
I think the conversation around data is actually a perfect example. Think about a survivor who has experienced trafficking and goes through the terrible process of having to tell their story to two, five or 10 people before accessing the services they need. By the time they're at a point, with a representative from a government or frontline agency, for that data to be collected.... Let's say they haven't experienced trafficking, but they're a consensual sex worker who experienced exploitation. The person they're talking to hears “sex trafficking”, and they check that box and it gets added to the system.
Bias has a very profound effect on how we collect data, which then has a profound effect on where we invest funds into law enforcement and also frontline engagement. Training in data collection within frontline or community-based agencies would be transformative in the ability to provide a nuanced understanding of what an individual is saying happened to them.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Karen Vecchio
Fantastic. Thanks so much.
With the committee's permission—I'm looking at the time and we're down to about three and a half or four minutes—I was just hoping that I could ask a question, as the chair, and just ask it of everybody, and then we can call it a day.
Is everybody okay? The chair is asking a question.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Karen Vecchio
All right. Thanks, everybody.
I would really like to thank you all. This has been a really good conversation. Specifically, we do try to figure out.... We understand that some individuals are sex workers, but we also understand that many people have been exploited. I really want to focus on the youth, focus on that 12-year-old young girl who has been exploited, because those are the numbers we're hearing from the human trafficking.
I'm coming to you. When we talk about definitions, can you provide a potential definition specifically looking at the age category of under the age of 18, because I do not think sex work would be something for a child the age of 17 and under, so what would be a definition for sexual exploitation, these types of things, human trafficking, in the form of somebody under the age of 18? Can you provide me a definition?
I'm going to start with Ms. Price, and then go to Ms. Wu and then Ms. Stone.
Ms. Price.
Executive Director, Action Coalition on Human Trafficking Alberta Association
Anyone under the age of 18 who is engaging in sex work is considered exploitation.
Executive Director, SWAN Vancouver, Canadian Alliance for Sex Work Law Reform
Yes, I believe we already have a definition for this population, which is child sexual exploitation. I think it stands distinct from human trafficking.
Project Manager, Yukon Status of Women Council
I would echo, in full, Ms. Wu's statement.
Thank you.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Karen Vecchio
Thanks very much.
I just really wanted to do that, because that's one of the biggest challenges we're having right now.... We do understand, and I hear you today, but especially when we're looking at youth, to me, it is absolutely exploitation. We know of 12-year-olds being sold on the streets. We know of 12-year-olds doing random acts of sexual deeds because they have been exploited, so I think we really need to look at those vulnerable populations.
Once again—I'm putting my chair's hat back on—I would really like to thank all of you for being here as our witnesses today.
We're winding up this incredible study. On Thursday, we'll return. We will have the minister for one hour. She will be here to talk about the main estimates. The second hour is going to be on this study.
Seeing no objections, we'll adjourn.