Status of Women Committee on Feb. 29th, 2024

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Ms. Huntley and Ms. Cukier, thank you for being with us. This is our last panel for this fascinating study on women's economic empowerment. You're the cherry on the sundae of this study. You've raised some points that are somewhat new, or at least you've addressed some points from another angle as part of this study. I'll try to ask both of you questions.

Ms. Huntley, you touched on something that hasn't come up a lot in this study. You talked about relieving the burden on women during their maternity leave. It reminded me of a ruling by the Social Security Tribunal of Canada in early 2022, which struck down certain provisions of the Employment Insurance Act that were found to be discriminatory against women who had lost their jobs during or after maternity leave. Under the rules at the time, a mother who lost her job during her maternity leave or shortly after her return to work could not accumulate the number of hours needed to qualify for employment insurance benefits. I remember that even the government wanted to appeal that decision, and that really shocked me.

The reason I come back to this is that it's a federal program. We're currently calling for a complete overhaul of the Employment Insurance Act because it discriminates against women for many reasons.

How important is it to have measures to relieve the burden on women during their maternity leave and to review federal programs like employment insurance to ensure that we break down the barriers women must overcome in the labour market?

[Paula Huntley]

Thank you for that question.

When I think about maternity leave and I think of moms at home with their children, if we could go back to the basics and think about the value of what the children are receiving by being home longer with their mom...who has no stress, first of all. Once the children get out and they start in kindergarten, I think they're probably way more ready to face new friends and be more confident if we allow moms at home to feel like they are fully with their children and they do not have to worry about time and finances.

Think about all the things that are affecting youth today—mental health, peer pressure and all these things—and now go back to the value of what happened when children were raised by a mom and a dad who had no worries. Family was the most important. I think the value of family has to be elevated to way more than what it is now, because parents, right now, are pressured. Some are actually working two or three jobs, and they don't get to spend as much time at home as they need to. Something has to give.

I've often said that if you go back to the basics and start thinking about it simplistically, sometimes a light bulb will come on and you'll think, “You know, we've been working so hard on other issues that we didn't even see it, and it was clearly in front of our face.” I think this is one of those topics.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

As a woman in politics and the mother of a two-year-old daughter, I face challenges, but I meet them with my family's help.

I think it's about having options. That's why Quebec chose to set up a child care system. The economist Luc Godbout proved that this also allowed women to rejoin the workforce. So it's important to provide options. On the one hand, women who want to stay at home must be given maternity leave that doesn't penalize them. On the other, child care services must be available to those better suited to that model. I think that's the take-away from all of this.

Earlier, we discussed with you the impact of COVID-19 on women entrepreneurs. Recently, we talked about paying back Canada emergency business account loans. During the pandemic, the government had introduced this account and set a deadline for paying back loans. However, we realized that this put pressure on the smallest businesses in particular. I'm talking about small businesses with only a few employees.

In the second round of questions, I may speak with Ms. Cukier about those very small businesses. Women entrepreneurs often have very small businesses.

By setting a deadline, the government showed a lack of flexibility. If you or I are unable to pay the taxes we owe, at least we can talk to a Canada Revenue Agency representative to pay off our debt over time or come to an agreement.

Why wasn't the government able to show some flexibility instead of forcing women to take out a second mortgage on their houses to pay back the loan? It's a bit like forcing them to pay the balance of a credit card with another credit card. I'm very concerned that a number of businesses led by women won't make it. As I said, they found a very temporary solution, but it could be a dangerous one.

I only have about 30 seconds left in my speaking time, but I'd like you to tell me about the importance of flexibility. Too many federal programs are not flexible enough. Can you tell me how important the word "flexibility" is when efforts are made to help women?

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

You have 30 seconds.

[Paula Huntley]

That's a hard call, this all-or-nothing choice: You can have the money now, and we'll wait until later and you'll pay it. I think there has to be a discussion right through the whole program, monthly, about what percentage you are going to pay, so it's not all loaded at the end. Right now, I'm sure there are companies out there that cannot pay it—I know there are—because of the pressures. Some have not bounced back from COVID.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Thank you very much.

We're going online to Leah Gazan.

You have six minutes.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you so much.

My first question is for Ms. Huntley.

You spoke about the stresses of parenting, and then you spoke about some moms having to work three jobs. I have actually been that mom, so I know how stressful that is, although I have to say that I was very lucky because I had a post-secondary education. As a single mom, to provide for my son in the way I wanted to, as my son also has special needs, I ended up working three jobs. I had a full-time academic job, and then I took on other contract work to support my family.

One thing I have put forward, in light of the stress on families and in light of rising inflation—really, the financial stress on families is often borne on the backs of women, and I think we know that—is a guaranteed livable basic income, which is my response to the crisis of gender-based violence. We know that call for justice 4.5 of the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls calls for the immediate implementation of a guaranteed livable income for all Canadians, in addition to indigenous people throughout the country, as a way to tackle gender-based violence.

We found, during the CERB, in terms of studies that were done, in terms of CERB payments, that in fact it did not make people lazy. Women, particularly, who wanted to go for training or wanted to change careers were able to when they were given a guaranteed livable basic income. I'm thinking of all the folks in the energy sector, which is shifting, who may want to shift but need a guaranteed livable basic income to actually be able to have a choice, in terms of what they want to do.

What are your thoughts about a guaranteed livable basic income, in terms of how it could potentially support families, but more specifically women?

[Paula Huntley]

Thank you for the question.

When I think about a basic guaranteed income, the first thing I think I would have to look at is the programs we have in place now. Who needs what first? That is the first thing we need to look at. I don't think everybody should get everything. I will go back to the words “back to basics”. Look at the programs we have, and look at what's working and what's not. Some probably need to be eliminated and restarted.

That's the first thing I see. I know there's a conversation there on basic income, but we can't start it out for everybody.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

I would agree with you, Ms. Huntley, that our social safety net is quite archaic and that we do need to shift. A guaranteed livable basic income is certainly one way of shifting it, in addition to current and future government programs and supports.

I can't see the floor anymore. I am just wondering—

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

I can see you. I'm not sure why you can't see the floor.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Okay. I can see me, and then there's a reflection of me, so there are two—

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

You are double beautiful, lady.

We're good again. Time's back on now.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

I'm not that self-absorbed, people. I don't need to see two of me. I want to see the wonderful panellists here.

I want to move on to the discussion about STEM.

Ms. Cukier, you spoke about how there are now fewer women entering STEM than before. You spoke about the massacre that occurred at the École Polytechnique. I was wondering if you could expand on that. That's directly related to gender-based violence, and I'm wondering if you can expand on your analysis of that.

[Dr. Wendy Cukier]

Sure. I'll try to be brief.

My apologies if I misspoke, but I think what I said was that there are fewer women in computer science today than there were in 1989, and only marginally more in engineering. There has been an increase of women in STEM, but not at the level that we might have expected.

I would say two things, maybe three. One, why didn't it work? There were posters of astronauts and camps, and this and that. I would argue that there was no accountability. I would argue that organizations with levers of power, like Engineers Canada, which does the accreditations and so on, didn't have the right frameworks in place to actually move things forward. We see this a lot with good intentions that are not supported by clear targets, goals and accountability frameworks.

I think that is one big issue with women in science, technology, engineering and math, and the trades. If you do a Google image search on “carpenter”, you will get Jesus, carpenter ants and Karen Carpenter before you see a woman carpenter, I kid you not. Those are very powerful images, and we obviously have to work on getting people in.

To your point, and the link with gender-based violence, which I see as a continuum, many of the science, technology and engineering environments are still toxic. What you see there are retention issues, not just recruitment issues, and there's a lot more that could be said on that.

It feeds directly into our innovation entrepreneurship strategy and where the supports are, because there is way more money if you have a quantum computing start-up than if you have a services-oriented business in a small community. That just doesn't compute.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

We are down to the end of the meeting. We all have so many questions, but I'm going to just take the chair's prerogative to ask if there are any last comments. We can give you a minute each if there's anything you haven't had a chance to touch on.

[Paula Huntley]

There's one thing I would like to comment on, and it came from the first group that spoke. It was Michelle who spoke about the partnership between a male and a female in the family. That was so bang on and it resonated with me when I heard it. Out of all this, running a business myself through COVID, my husband has been my rock. He is probably my biggest fan—in my own mind. Just when I think I can't take it anymore, he'll say, “So, you're going there today”, and I'll say, “Yes, I am.” I would like to thank him for that.

[Dr. Wendy Cukier]

I'll send some written comments, but there are several aspects that I would like to focus on. First, targets, transparency and accountability are absolutely fundamental. Look at the Investing in Women Code in the U.K.

Second, there are models of innovative practices. I am not sure if anyone from Coralus has testified, but $5 million created 250 jobs with interest-free loans and a 100% repayment rate. There are some really powerful examples that aren't on people's radar, and that's why I think the valuation piece is important.

The last point is that more than 50% of businesses start with less than $5,000. It is easier to get microfinancing grants and loans in Bangladesh currently than it is in Canada. Coming back to my starting point, which is that 90% of private sector employment is SMEs, I'd say we really have to invest.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Awesome. Thank you so much for those wrapping-up comments.

On behalf of the committee, I'd really like to thank you for coming here.

Since we're still in public, I would like to say to all the women, on behalf of our committee, happy International Women's Day. Have a wonderful time.

We are going to suspend. I remind those people online that we are going in camera, so please switch to the proper link.

[Proceedings continue in camera]