Transport Committee on June 15th, 2006

[Marc Grégoire]

We could also offer you a technical briefing. We could come back here with a technical briefing, if you prefer, with slides and comparisons of aircraft.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

May I get something else on the record?

Following Mr. Jean's comments, I am not at all assured, as a former environmental lawyer, of what your safety management systems are doing to reduce greenhouse gases. I don't know what your environmental policies are. I've read your sustainable development strategy. I was one of the people who called for the creation of those strategies in the government years ago. I have no idea.

We have three DGs and an ADM here today. I'm told that environmental issues are buried in the department; I'm sure they're mainstreamed, as they should be, under safety and security.

Can you give us another three-page précis, please, and tell us exactly how environmental standards are moving forward? Are greenhouse gases in particular being addressed by the organizations you regulate?

[Marc Grégoire]

A colleague of mine is in charge of the programs that include environmental matters, so this is done in another part of the department, except for a number of things under our responsibility--ship pollution, for instance, ballast water, and a number of those that could affect safety at the same time--but the purely environmental matters are not done by my group. They are done in another part. They are not embedded or less important; they are as important, but they are dealt with by somebody else in the department.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

The last thing is that on page 2 you say, on SMSs:

This cultural change must begin at the top of an organization--at the level of power, leadership and ultimate accountability.

Could I put to you, for your consideration, that I would disagree? I think it should begin with finance. I think it should begin with lender's liability, I think it should begin with money, and I think it should begin with insurance and risk.

If you want to get the attention of companies on safety and security, there's nothing that speaks to them more dramatically at any level--small fishermen or Air Canada--than money.

I'm not sure if your SMS is actually inculcated. New changes that deal with finance, the power of litigation, and the power of liability as it has revolutionized and rocked the American economy in different sectors--I would recommend these to you for your attention.

[Marc Grégoire]

I don't see a question here, so...thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Mr. Laframboise.

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Thank you.

I would like to start with a comment. We have agreed on having a briefing. You are, in fact, telling us that a 1 to 50 ratio, combined with mediation measures, would be equivalent to the current 1 to 40 ratio. I think that we should discuss this again.

I would like to come back to what I was telling you earlier with respect to safety management systems for air transportation. Obviously, civil aviation is not only Air Canada, which is a small domestic company. In Quebec, there are over 100 aviation companies. There are small ones, medium-sized ones, and large ones.

I was telling you that the safety management system that you want to establish in every company will also affect the smaller companies. On the other hand, your inspection systems will ensure that they are safe.

Your previous minimum has become your maximum, for example, in terms of the number of hours of training for inspectors in Quebec. I would like to add, in passing, that they are the ones who have the least flight training in Canada. Therefore, in terms of what you are spending on training for your inspectors, the minimum has become the maximum. It is as you are telling them that from now on, they will conduct their inspections in a different manner. You said yourself that you will be checking more than anything else, but these are small companies.

The public must rest assured that these inspectors will have the same training as previously. In small companies, your inspector will have to take the plane in order to ensure that it complies with standards. That is what is currently done.

If you restrict budgets or if you make minimum training for inspectors become the new maximum, you will end up with what we have in Quebec. Look at this because that is what is currently happening in Quebec. The minimum that you require has become the maximum in terms of the number of hours of training for your inspectors, and so on. It is as if you are saying that you are going to provide your inspectors with less training because you have greater confidence in the private sector.

You are telling us today that the private sector must take more time, etc. I do not think you should do that. I think you should maintain an inspection system for all sectors so that the public can rest assured that inspection in all sectors is still effective and that there are people conducting those inspections. I know that the training for your inspectors is costly, probably even more so in aviation than in the rail sector, because flight hours are involved, but this is necessary for the purpose of reassuring the public.

Earlier you spoke about people. We are working for the people. I am telling you that I do not think the people will feel reassured by what you have done.

[Marc Grégoire]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Mr. Julian, you may make a last comment.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to make a comment and ask some questions.

First, M. Grégoire, you stated that it will take years before we see the benefits of the safety management systems. That worries me. Since 2005, the number of rail accidents has been the highest in 10 years. If we have to wait for years before seeing the benefits, it dangerous to establish systems that can lead to this type of situation. We might see the benefits in a few years, but the number of accidents will be higher in the beginning. That was my comment.

I will now ask you some questions.

When we talk about the flight attendants, I share the concerns of other members around this table about the implementation of a reduced ratio of flight attendants. I'm particularly concerned about the impact on seniors and on people with disabilities. It almost seems to be a self-managed evacuation system. And I don't think that is in any way a responsible way of approaching flight safety.

My question previously was whether there have been studies about other jurisdictions. My question to you really is this. What kinds of studies exist within the department that might show that the danger, the increased danger--which is undoubtable during evacuations and in taking people off aircraft, particularly people with disabilities--is somehow justified by advantages somewhere else? So if you have those studies, we would like to see them.

Finally, for the civil aviation data-reporting systems, I would like to know how the public accesses that. Mr. Preuss, you said very clearly that there are privacy issues, but that once those privacy issues are dealt with, this is accessible. How then do I, as a member of the transport committee, access that reporting system?

[Merlin Preuss]

Are you asking about accessing the database or about accessing the information? Those are two different things.

To give access to the database would cause, again, privacy concerns, because that database would be open. It's not scrubbed to deal with privacy issues.

In terms of getting access to a report from that, it's a matter of using ATIP, and then it's available.

We also have folks who are getting these things automatically, like the associations and companies. I'm not sure exactly what procedure is in place right now, but I can get back to you on that in terms of whether you, personally, would be on the distribution lists or the access lists.

Frankly, the industry uses this as part of its own analysis to help ferret out problems. So I'll have to get back to you on what the current situation is, because up until a couple of weeks ago, we were also in the Federal Court over this particular issue. I'm sure you're probably aware of that.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

You mentioned a database and the information. What I would be interested in learning is what exists here within the database and what exists within the information, and then how we can access that.

[Merlin Preuss]

I'll use another word instead of “information”; I'll call them reports from that database. We can draw reports out of the database; that respects the privacy requirements. As to how those are distributed and how they're available, we're in the process of developing that policy, but I can certainly get back to you on that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

With that, I have to say we have run out of time. I would like to thank our guests for being here today and providing us with information.

There has been a request for some reports to be sent back to this committee, and I would appreciate it if you could do that as quickly as possible, as we are studying all safety aspects at this time.

Thank you very much.

For committee members, we'll meet briefly here to lay out next week's agenda and see who we can have available to us.

If the members of the subcommittee could come up to the front, we'll deal with this.

The meeting is adjourned.