Transport Committee on Oct. 31st, 2006

[Don Bell, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

Mr. Gow, just as you were answering Mr. Hubbard's question, you were cut off at the end because he was moving on to something. You indicated that derailments had been unusually high and that they were getting better, and then you started to say “but”. You didn't finish. I'm going to make the assumption that you were going to say that they were getting better but that they're not yet good enough. I don't know if I'm putting words in your mouth, but I'll let you put in your own words.

[Harry Gow]

That's basically it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

If I may, Mr. Gow, just before you answer, we are very limited for time, so please be as brief as possible. Thank you.

[Harry Gow]

Yes. The magic word for that last one is “deferred maintenance”, and there's going to be catching up to do.

On the environmental concern, our concern was not that the environment is mentioned. It could be emphasized. But we think the social concerns should be included in the legislation.

Finally, as to the noise issues, I certainly agree with Mr. Benson's remarks. With respect to the specific noise you mentioned, I think we had the Union Pacific syndrome when BC Rail was taken over. If you review the history of takeovers of railways by Union Pacific...it was pretty catastrophic in one way or another for a while when they took over C and NW and Southern Pacific. I think the purchase of BC Rail led to some changes that were maybe a little hasty—long trains that mountain railways couldn't support, for example.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Mr. Storseth.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much for the presentation. I found it very interesting. You're clearly very knowledgeable on the issue of rail, particularly when it comes to noise.

As you know, last week, Mr. Gow, we had CN in and we talked to them a little about new technologies that can be utilized to mitigate the noise factor, which is becoming an increasing problem, as we've heard on this committee.

I was very interested to hear you speak today about things like the Euro engines and some of the other newer technologies that you've seen and experienced in Europe. In your opinion, can our rail companies adapt some of these technologies successfully here in Canada?

[Harry Gow]

Sir, that's a huge question, but to a degree, yes. I have seen transfer of European technology to Canada and I've seen it in the other direction. This has been going on since the beginning of railways on both continents. On the other hand, there are cultural barriers that slow down the transfer. For example, Transport 2000 was shocked and amazed to see that the City of Ottawa would build on its railway a superhighway type anti-noise wall, which any engineer experienced in railways could have told them would have been ineffective, and it was.

The answer is, there is transfer of technologies, but it's a bit slow. Everybody reads the same journals. We all read Railway Gazette International, International Rail Journal, and Railway Age, and people know this stuff if they read that. They don't all, but most do. But then getting permission to bring in this new and strange thing can cause headaches.

For example, there were people in Transport Canada who didn't want European couplers to be used on the O-Train. Unfortunately, if you didn't use those couplers you couldn't run them in a multiple unit. There was a fellow in Mr. Collenette's office who phoned up and raised a little hell and the Scharfenberg couplers were retained.

There is an anti-European bias in the railway culture here, just as there's an anti-North American bias in the railway culture in some countries in Europe. That is a barrier to technical transfer in a timely manner.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

In real terms of being able to transfer that technology over here to get a better service or better end product for the environment, safety, or noise, it is completely doable?

[Harry Gow]

The field is open, but there are regulatory and legal difficulties. For example, and this is just taken out of the air as one of many, North American regulations require 800,000 pounds crash resistance at the ends of railway cars. This was very wise at the time when that was the only defence. Now Europeans have what's called crumple zones at the end of their passenger cars and locomotives. This collapses progressively just like on an automobile. It's the devil's own job getting those standards accepted in North America. It's coming, but a lot of this depends on our relationship with the United States. Many Canadian regulations are simply photocopied from the Federal Railroad Administration's standards in the United States. There are reasons for that, but it does hinder innovation. So there are paper barriers.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

Thank you.

I want to switch gears a little here. Your organization does do a lot of work when it comes to research in the transportation industry. With regard to the prairie region of your organization, would you be able to give us an insight into any research that has been done, or is being done, in regard to rail safety and the environment?

[Harry Gow]

From the point of view of our organization?

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

Yes, particularly within the prairie region.

[Harry Gow]

Our organization is based largely in Regina and to a lesser degree in Melville and Saskatoon. Their involvement in the safety aspect--is that what you said?

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

Safety and the environment. I'd like you to comment on both.

[Harry Gow]

Safety and environment. They're very strongly involved in environmental issues in railways and transit. They have incorporated in their membership a number of fairly well-known environmentalists, particularly in Regina. Their approach is to promote a kind of holistic thing that Mr. Benson was talking about; that is, attempt to take account of all factors--social, environmental, and economic--before making a decision.

The prairie group has been extremely active in trying to promote the use of green transport, such as the use of buses, even in a prairie city where it is very convenient to use the car. That has an impact on safety, because as we all know, the number of deaths in buses is very low compared to the passenger car, where it's a permanent bloodletting. They have not taken an active role lately in rail safety issues, perhaps because most of the issues have been occurring in British Columbia and not in Alberta, Saskatchewan, or Manitoba. It's been pretty quiet on the safety front, with exceptions--derailments like the Lake Wabamun incident, etc. There were flurries of activity, but there is not, I'm afraid, on the prairies a sustained approach to railway safety in our group.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Thank you, Mr. Storseth.

We have a few minutes left, so as previously done in committee, we'll start a short round.

Mr. Carrier.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you.

My question is for Mr. Benson. You said earlier that your organization extends across Canada and the United States, that is, that is throughout the continent.

To your knowledge, does the United States have any legislation similar to this bill that places restrictions on the amount of noise caused by railways? If so, what impact did such legislation have on businesses and the public?

[Phil Benson]

I will consult with my colleagues in our international headquarters and get an answer back to you.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Alright.

You cannot answer immediately?

[Phil Benson]

I will get it as soon as I can. I will get a message to them tomorrow and see if I can get an answer back to the committee.

Thank you.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Mr. Benson, they can send it directly to the clerk.

[Phil Benson]

I'll send it directly to the clerk.

I'm sure there are laws, but the question is whether they are specifically similar to Bill C-11. So I will pursue that matter.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Julian.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to touch on the issue of airfare advertising and air travel complaints within Bill C-11. You mentioned, Mr. Gow, that your organization represents air travel consumers as well.

Mr. Benson, when we talk about the Teamsters we're talking about all modes of transportation. I wonder if you have any comments to offer on either of those elements of Bill C-11--transparency in airfare advertising and air travel complaints going to the Canadian Transportation Agency.