Evidence of meeting #22 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was noise.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Harry Gow  Founding President, Transport 2000 Canada
Phil Benson  Lobbyist, Teamsters Canada
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Mark D'Amore

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Good afternoon to the Standing Committee on Transport, Infrastructure and Communities. We're studying Bill C-11, An Act to amend the Canada Transportation Act and the Railway Safety Act and to make consequential amendments to other Acts.

Joining us today, we have Mr. Phil Benson from Teamsters Canada. Representing Transport 2000 Canada, we have Mr. Harry Gow, the founding president. Offering support is the current president, Mr. David Jeanes.

Welcome. I'm sure you've probably had some experience appearing before committees before. As indicated, you have a seven-minute timeframe for presentations, and then there will be questions from the committee.

Mr. Gow, if you'd like to start, please go ahead.

October 31st, 2006 / 3:35 p.m.

Harry Gow Founding President, Transport 2000 Canada

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Transport 2000 wishes to thank you for the opportunity to briefly present our points of view regarding Bill C-11. There are a few ancillary matters that constitute context, rather than directly belonging to Bill C-11.

As a general comment, we support Bill C-11, but we have some concerns with some proposed sections as the amendment now reads, because those proposed sections do not appear to serve our best interest as Canadians. There are four points, of which the middle two are really on Bill C-11. The first and fourth are contextual, Mr. Chair.

First of all, Transport 2000 would like to draw the committee's attention to the uncertain long-term prospects for VIA Rail. As a national business and public service provider, VIA continues to suffer from a lack of a legislative basis, which would ensure its long-term survival.

The second point concerns the national transportation policy declaration, particularly, the statement that prohibits investing in one mode of transportation to the detriment of another form of transportation. In our view, this would be highly problematic. Studies from other developed countries, and even our own studies in Nova Scotia, indicate exactly the opposite. In fact, the introduction of one form of transportation can actually increase the use of other forms of transportation in the same region. Such a catalytic effect could reduce our dependence on private vehicles and help achieve the emissions targets set out under the new clean air act.

The Nova Scotia work we did showed that when passenger trains were withdrawn from local runs, for instance, in the Annapolis Valley and up to Cape Breton, the number of bus passengers dropped immediately by 10%. We did a survey and we found it was because people were using the two services in a complementary way to increase frequency. When that frequency dropped, the number of passengers dropped by more than the number or percentage of runs removed.

The other effect is connectivity. People can travel on from a train trip on the bus, or vice versa. Adding a corridor may actually benefit both modes, and the same may be true of other modes, although there are some highly competitive businesses where that might not be so.

While we appreciate that the new act reaffirms established principles and embraces new ones, notably the environment, this strikes us as needlessly restrictive. This may be a surprising statement, but while both economic and environmental factors are identified, we urge the committee to go a step further and add a reference to sustainable development as a guiding principle of Bill C-11. Such a reference would include social considerations as well as economic and environmental ones. This is according to the definition of sustainable development by the Brundtland commission.

Finally, Transport 2000 has been advised that some members of Parliament have received complaints regarding noise from railways. Before resorting to costly measures, changes in operating hours, large sound barriers, or even removal of track, we advise the mediation service available through Transport Canada be first used. There are numerous options for such things as noise abatement. I won't elaborate on that, but if people want details, I'd be happy to supply them at another time.

There is an annex here called ”VIA Rail Service--the Importance of Investment”. It was written to mark the coming of 150 years of service between Montreal and Toronto. It limits itself to a statement about the value of rapid train service in the corridor, but mutatis mutandis, these considerations would apply in other areas of the country, such as the Maritimes, or between Calgary and Edmonton. Indeed, the whole VIA network is valuable economically for tourism, business, and visiting families and relatives.

Finally, we strongly support giving more protection to rural rail lines. The urban lines are and will be protected to a degree. Ottawa, for example, has benefited from this. On the other hand, on Vancouver Island there's the Esquimalt and Nanaimo Railway, which is now in the hands of the Island Corridor Foundation. By the way, the mayor of Parksville, Mr. Jack Peake, sends you his greetings.

The Esquimalt and Nanaimo--the Island Corridor Foundation, as it is now called--is in the process of building its business case and would like to draw attention to a few points. First, protect rural lines the same as lines in towns. Second, the passage of a new VIA Rail act would be helpful for these people on the island. Finally, the language of a bill ought to be modified to include rural rail lines.

We also suggest removing from the bill any references to urban transit authorities, to be replaced with expressions such as transportation agency or similar body. This would allow such authorities, boards or agencies to be established in rural areas, as well. For example, the United Counties of Prescott and Russell plan to expand the territory served by the Clarence-Rockland Transit authority to eventually include the United Counties and even part of Glengarry County. This area is not at all urban, in a strict sense.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I believe I have said what I had to say.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Thank you very much.

Mr. Benson, I understand you're under the weather a little.

3:40 p.m.

Phil Benson Lobbyist, Teamsters Canada

Just a tad.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

We'll try to accommodate you as much as we can.

3:40 p.m.

Lobbyist, Teamsters Canada

Phil Benson

Thank you, Mr. Chair and members for allowing me to appear.

First, I'd like to thank the government for splitting the omnibus bill into these manageable chunks. It's rather pleasant to appear on one or two small subject matters rather than trying to deal with several at one time.

Teamsters Canada is a trade union organization representing approximately 130,000 members in Canada and, with our affiliation to the International Brotherhood of Teamsters, about 1.5 million in North America. We have many divisions--film, dairy, beverage, fashion, tourism, and on and on--but we are the choice of Canadian workers in the transportation sectors: air, rail, road, ports, mass transit, cargo air, and of course land.

We're appearing partly to support the bill in general. We also feel that quite often you hear criticism of bills when people come. We think it is part of our obligation to the general public to appear on transportation bills that affect our members and the public to voice either our support or our criticism.

In this case, we have reviewed the bill quite thoroughly. Teamsters Canada Rail Conference locomotive engineers, Teamster Canada Rail Conference maintenance of way division, and our airline division have reviewed the bill, and generally the comments coming back have been positive.

There are issues or questions regarding definitions of person and how they relate to employees versus directors or corporations. And although they're somewhat dealt with in the act, part of the issue becomes, in other acts, dangerous goods and others, that we're dealing with various issues surrounding the responsibility of an employee versus that of a corporate mind.

The other issue is constables. As was pointed out, in one of the Teamsters ports, there are the eight levels of police authorities of various description running around with various responsibilities.

The noise issue was raised by our Teamsters Canada Rail Conference, maintenance of way. One of the issues becomes, quite simply, not the level of maintenance but the difficulty of getting on the line because of the pure volume of trains; hence the issue is the times and when you can get on a track, etc.

Most of these, of course, will be dealt with by regulation. As for the bill itself, we do not seem to have a lot of concerns or problems with it. We would request, of course, that we be part and parcel of the full consultation on all regulations that are enacted.

I promised I would be brief, and I thank you for giving me the time. If you have any questions, I'd be pleased either to answer them or get back to you as quickly as I can with an answer.

Thank you.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Thank you very much.

Mr. McGuinty, go ahead, please.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, gentlemen, for attending this afternoon. It's good to see all of you again I think.

Can I go back, Mr. Gow and Mr. Jeanes, to your submission, which speaks to the question of VIA Rail's uncertain prospects over the longer term? I take it, given bullet point 3 on the first page and given your additional remarks on the back of the page, that you're making a strong pitch here for additional support for VIA Rail? I'm trying to connect the pitch for VIA Rail funding with this bill. Am I missing something?

3:40 p.m.

Founding President, Transport 2000 Canada

Harry Gow

No, it's context. It's not within the bill. This is simply a plug to remind members that VIA Rail has some needs. They haven't all been met.

But for the act to operate efficiently, one has to have viable carriers. That's all. I wouldn't push this as part of Bill C-11. It's context, sir.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON

I'm also curious about the comments you made, and I'm quoting you here:

Before resorting to costly measures--changes in operating hours, large sound barriers, even removal of track--we strongly advise that the mediation service available through Transport Canada be used first.

Why?

3:40 p.m.

Founding President, Transport 2000 Canada

Harry Gow

I'll give you an example, Mr. McGuinty.

The people in Gatineau were very upset about the Quebec Gatineau Railway, and I've heard of other instances. Transport 2000 has some interests in Gatineau, and we spoke with Transport Canada. They brought forward the fact that they have a mediation service, and that even though this was a provincially regulated railway, they would be happy to mediate.

In the end, the problem was solved by moving the locomotives that were idling outside people's houses all night to an industrial yard, what was then the CIP.

We have noted that there are sometimes extremely expensive solutions to problems that would be better solved with a little thought. To give you an example, a huge wall was built along the Ottawa O Train's line for nearly a kilometre, and the installation of continuous welded rail, which was already programmed, solved most of the noise problem. A much more modest sound barrier directed at the tracks only would have sufficed. A vegetable barrier such as a hedge would have fixed the rest more esthetically and would have not permitted graffiti.

What I'm saying here is before jumping on the railways, all of us as citizens, not just as MPs or constituents, should consider the alternatives. That's all.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON

I take it you would agree that the bill is making a quantum leap by actually setting up a dispute resolution process inside the CTA. Is that correct? It's now actually crossing the Rubicon, a threshold, so to speak. It's formalizing it and giving the legislative power to do so.

I'm having a hard time reconciling Transport 2000's stated ambition, which is to promote rail and promote public transport, when we've been hearing from a succession of witnesses that—

3:45 p.m.

Founding President, Transport 2000 Canada

Harry Gow

All I can say, sir, is that we would be a little sad if obligations were placed on these carriers that are not placed on other transport industries. That's basically it. Some rules are sometimes used by some citizens to beat some industries over the head with a stick. It's important to set standards and to get the carriers to work toward them. There's no problem with that. It's simply a word of caution, sir. That's all.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON

We've heard from witnesses who have suggested that there is shrink wrap technology available right now for braking systems on trains. It's off-the-shelf technology. It's a question of retrofitting existing rolling stock. This would go a huge distance in, for example, minimizing noise.

I know you're not suggesting that this kind of move to best available technology ought to be delayed, that we should have dispute resolution first and then delay the retrofitting of that stock to later. As I understand it, you're not suggesting that, right?

3:45 p.m.

Founding President, Transport 2000 Canada

Harry Gow

I think your points are well taken. I will say that sometimes with a little goodwill, things can be solved a lot faster using appropriate technology. For example, the Quebec Gatineau Railway would have saved themselves a lot of misery had they installed the Hotstart technology on their locomotives. They wouldn't even have had to move them because they don't idle at night in that case.

So there is a lot to be said on both sides of the issue, but for the freight railways in particular, they are big, they are noisy, they are part of the economy, and we're just issuing a word of caution on that.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON

Do we have it right as a committee, then, that Transport 2000's principal thrust is all about promoting public transport, and rail particularly?

3:45 p.m.

Founding President, Transport 2000 Canada

Harry Gow

Yes, I think we could say that, sir. You can detect a distinct bias on our part in favour of such things as buses and trains, and maybe a little bit of a jaundiced look at the automobile, for example. Yes, I would admit to that.

We function as a consumer group for airline passengers as well, sir.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Le président Conservative Merv Tweed

Mr. Laframboise.

3:45 p.m.

Bloc

Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I will get back to you in a moment, Mr. Gow, but I would first like to ask Mr. Benson a question.

This bill contains a provision that allows rail companies to hire police officers, which would amend the Railway Safety Act. You said earlier that you have concerns about the use of police officers. According to the language of the bill, the aim is to protect property and individuals within the territory administered by or belonging to the company.

Why do you have a problem with that, Mr. Benson?

3:45 p.m.

Lobbyist, Teamsters Canada

Phil Benson

Thank you, Mr. Laframboise.

It's not so much a problem. It's simply that, as I understand it from our conferences, depending on where you are, there can be up to eight groups of police at various levels running around a particular yard, especially when you get near a port.

It's not a problem at all with the constables. They've been there and we're just changing their status somewhat, as I understand it. It's just to ensure that when it comes to the regulations, what people do, how they do it, and how they fit into other schemes that are being developed...the devil is always in the details.

If you like, it's more a request that we're fully consulted when we're moving forward, so that we can see how they're actually going to apply on the property.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC

Alright. So, you are not against the content of the bill's provision, per se, but you are wondering about future application.

Do I understand you correctly regarding your concerns about the use of police officers?

3:50 p.m.

Lobbyist, Teamsters Canada

Phil Benson

That's correct.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC

Perfect. My second question has to do with the bill's proposal concerning noise, namely, section 29. Do you have any reservations about the content of this section, which states that rail companies can be obliged to take corrective action? What sort of impact might this have on your employees' work? Would you have any difficulty adhering to this regulation, which could force companies to resort to mediation in the event of dispute? Are you and your employees comfortable with this provision?

3:50 p.m.

Lobbyist, Teamsters Canada

Phil Benson

Thank you for the question.

I certainly didn't receive any questions about the direction of the bill. Again, it was more in the devil than the details. The one issue that was raised was simply the concern, as is raised often, about maintenance of tracks and how we go about doing things to ensure that the work can still get done so that the tracks remain safe--again, how it is implemented and how it is used, rather than any concern about the direction of the bill in doing it.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC

This brings me to my question for Mr. Gow on the topic of noise. As you know, a number of complaints were filed because there was no mediation process. Consider, for example, the cases involving the Joffre yard in Lévis and another in the Hochelaga-Maisonneuve area of Montreal. Many problems concerning noise remain unresolved. In other words, despite mediation efforts, despite the fact that the parties agreed to meet, the problem was not resolved. We have reached a point where effective solutions must be found. It is all well and good to say that technical solutions exist, but those solutions must be applied. Based on your remarks, I am under the impression that you do not support any measures that are too drastic. Yet, if the citizens are pressuring their MPs, it is precisely because the companies are not dealing with the noise problem. We have reached the stage where we must take action to ensure that these problems no longer disturb the tranquility of communities bordering on railroad yards. You believe that we must continue trying to—