Transport Committee on Nov. 7th, 2006

[Andy Scott, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Welcome, Mr. Minister. I know it was short notice, and it's appreciated that you could be here so that we wouldn't have to deem to pass the estimates.

I'd like to ask a couple of specific questions. On March 24, this spring, the Prime Minister and the Premier of New Brunswick announced the $400 million highway infrastructure project. What's the funding source? Which of the programs is that money linked to or involved with?

[Lawrence Cannon, Conservative, Pontiac, QC]

Basically, Mr. Scott, it comes from future programs over the next ten years.

[Andy Scott, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Is it earmarked for SIF or HBIF?

[Lawrence Cannon, Conservative, Pontiac, QC]

It's not specific. It's a commitment by the Government of Canada to be able to fund these projects over the next ten years, and we haven't yet identified the specific sources of the funding.

[Andy Scott, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

I have to sort of rethink this, because there's much fanfare around this announcement. They've even listed the roads it was going to do. If the department is rethinking what the architecture would look like, and the government is already committed to doing these very specific roads that were named in that press release, how does that square with the fact that you haven't decided who's going to be eligible?

[Lawrence Cannon, Conservative, Pontiac, QC]

Not really, no. The question you asked me was in terms of funding: what is the specific program? I'm saying to you that we haven't identified that specific program. Whether or not we will honour and respect that commitment, the answer is yes, we will fulfill that commitment.

[Andy Scott, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

To some extent, the decision you have to make about the architecture is predetermined by virtue of the fact--

[Lawrence Cannon, Conservative, Pontiac, QC]

I could tell you it could come from CSIF, it could come from HBIF, it could come from MRIF, or it could come from an infrastructure program. But as I talk to you today, I can't specifically tell you it's going to come from this, that, or the other program. The money is there; it's going to be there for that project.

[Andy Scott, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

We just don't know where it is yet.

The Canadian Strategic Infrastructure Fund, historically, has been used broadly--transportation, connectedness, harbour clean-ups in Halifax and Saint John. Reading the references here, it sounds like it's going to be generally transportation. To read this, it does have that--

[Lawrence Cannon, Conservative, Pontiac, QC]

Mr. Scott, that's not a fair assessment. I wouldn't commit to that; I wouldn't want you to believe that.

[Andy Scott, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Then probably the HBIF program would be more inclined to go toward highways and so on. The reason I ask the question is that there's a lot of interest in the Canadian Strategic Infrastructure Fund, as you can well imagine. So where the funding source of the $200 million would land will send the people in different directions.

[Lawrence Cannon, Conservative, Pontiac, QC]

I understand your question. You're trying to get me to say something that I'm not committing to immediately. What I'm saying to you is that the money is going to be there. The money is there to be able to launch this, and we will respect that commitment. I can't tell you specifically whether it's going to be coming from this pot of money or that pot of money, or what the design is.

You know as well as I do, having seen how CSIF 2001 and CSIF 2003 evolved, they are partnership programs. We work in cooperation with the provinces and the territories to identify projects and priorities. There are thresholds, of course, as you know, in Quebec and in Ontario and other provinces. It is extremely important that these projects be identified in that manner.

What I'm saying is there has been a commitment, for the Province of New Brunswick, of $400 million over the next ten years to be able to support and fund these projects. The architecture of the project or the specific program hasn't yet been settled, but it will be there.

[Andy Scott, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Your reference to CSIF, though, doesn't cause me to believe.... That decision hasn't been taken. It could be HBIF as a funding source.

[Lawrence Cannon, Conservative, Pontiac, QC]

That's what I've been trying to say since the beginning. Maybe I wasn't clear on that, but that's the--

[Andy Scott, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

The decision taken by the ministers of transportation in September 2005 expanded what highways would be included. In fact, those are the highways that are included in this particular announcement the Prime Minister made. As I understand the reference to core highways, it's the old national highway system. That is very clear. It's repeated consistently through the documents that it's core highways. That seems a little inconsistent with this list of highways that was identified. They are feeder highways rather than core highways, according to your definition. So how does that square?

[Lawrence Cannon, Conservative, Pontiac, QC]

I indicated to the ministers of transport and the territories, when I met with them in Charlottetown, that we do prioritize the core network. You're absolutely right in your definition. But we do not exclude feeder highways. That's the difference.

[Andy Scott, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Have you made the decision--

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Mr. Carrier

[Lawrence Cannon, Conservative, Pontiac, QC]

We're going to get there.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Good afternoon, Minister. Good afternoon, gentlemen.

Your document on transfer payments shows that the figures are relatively stable for urban transportation demonstration programs. The year before, the budget was $19 million, and this has been increased to $21 million. At the moment, we know that all the major studies are reviewing various urban transportation options. They are looking at LRTs, trams and commuter trains. It is apparent that all the major cities in Canada feel a need to improve their transportation systems. The problem cannot be dealt with just by building highways and bridges. The program described in this budget item must support various urban transportation options.

Why is the government not taking more advantage of this initiative and investing more in similar programs, which would showcase the urban transportation options available to municipalities?

[Lawrence Cannon, Conservative, Pontiac, QC]

In a previous life I was involved with the UTSP, the Urban Transportation Showcase Program, along with the Société de transport de Montréal. The Société de transport de l'Outaouais also participated in an effort to, on the one hand, develop hybrid buses and, on the other hand, a dedicated bus lane in Montreal for the Société de transport de Montréal's buses. Other projects in Quebec are also on the drawing table. If I remember correctly, there was another project in Quebec City that involved using vehicles that did not run on fuel.

The Urban Transportation Showcase Program was established by the previous government. That program was of great benefit to public transportation boards in Canada and Quebec. I think that it was, to use your expression, a showcase for technology, for new approaches and new ways of doing things in the urban transportation sector. The program exists. It is a program that, in my opinion, has earned its stripes and that, I hope, will continue.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Do you intend to expand or improve the program to make it more effective?

[Lawrence Cannon, Conservative, Pontiac, QC]

I would say that the amount of money that we have allocated to urban transit, whether that be through fuel taxes... If I recall correctly, the fuel tax transfer was not in effect when this program was launched. A change may be required, or a different way of doing things. That is what I would ask you to consider. Perhaps the program will have to be modified, perhaps its shape and architecture will change, but what is important to realize ultimately is that there is definitely interest in urban transit and in funding these projects through, for example, programs such as the infrastructure programs I described earlier.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Would it be possible to obtain further information on the breakdown of that budget?

[Lawrence Cannon, Conservative, Pontiac, QC]

My colleagues here, the deputy minister...