Transport Committee on Nov. 7th, 2006

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Comparatively, is there a jurisdiction on the face of the planet that's screening all passenger plane cargo at this stage—not baggage, but cargo?

[John Forster]

I'm not aware of one. I'd have to look and get back to you.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Is Israel not scanning all packages, all cargo on their planes?

[John Forster]

I've been to Israel and visited their airport. Israel does a lot of things very differently because their threat environment is quite different, along with their area of operation. With Israel, you're talking about one major airport the size of Calgary. You're not talking about the volumes that North American or European airports face, so you have to look at it in that context as well.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Then what's the drop-dead date for the completion of your program study?

[John Forster]

It will be unfolding over two years. We'll be designing things and putting in place pilot projects to do them, and then we'll be coming back to the government to say where we are and how we're going to pay for them. Measures will be starting to go into place over that period, because we'll be doing screening of cargo and starting to register shippers and freight forwarders.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Some time ago, I wrote to the minister and suggested that he consider raising with the government new powers for the RCMP on an interim basis to, for example, start searching warehouses on an ad hoc and unpredictable basis, because the presidents and the CEOs and the directors and boards of the airport authorities tell me that not only is security in cargo passenger planes a problem, but the drug trade problem is flourishing. I have not heard back from the minister.

Is that something your department has considered?

[John Forster]

Could you repeat the question? I was being asked something else in my ear. Sorry.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

I suggested some time ago to the minister that we examine the possibility of having the RCMP or the Canada Border Services Agency, whichever is the most appropriate authority or police force, to be able to have the power to search, on an ad hoc basis, warehouses that do store shipped goods, not only to be able to deal with the potential ferreting out of problems in those packages in terms of security, but also in terms of the drug trade. Since we've heard from front-line workers at the Montreal airport that there is intimidation going on at the Montreal Trudeau Airport with respect to biker gangs and the drug trade, is that something your department has been considering?

[John Forster]

I think that's probably a better question for Minister Day and Public Safety, which is responsible for the RCMP, because there you're really into law enforcement issues around drug enforcement, smuggling, and immigration issues that aren't really within the purview of the Department of Transport.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

So it's not something the Department of Transport has considered?

[John Forster]

Yes.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Thank you.

[Marc Grégoire]

If I may add something on this one, we work very closely with CBSA, the RCMP, and the other organizations dealing with security. For instance, for the airports, we have an MOU with the RCMP, whereby they will share with us any sensitive information that would allow us to take action against individuals, such as revoking security clearances.

On your previous question about the air cargo security thing, one thing worth mentioning here is that we don't have this money yet. This money is in supplementary estimates (A). We're really hopeful that this committee will support the supplementary estimates (A), because this is the mechanism that will allow us to get the cargo security. We have started the work on a risk basis, but we cannot start the pilot project and the demonstration project before the committee approves and the House approves the supplementary estimates (A) budget.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Monsieur Ranger, can I go back to the Montreal announcement on Sunday? Just to assure my colleague Mr. Fast, from the perspective of indicators of progress inside the department, from the perspective of value for money, and from the perspective of accountable management, on the billion-dollar roadway, Highway 30, and the request for qualifications, as you mentioned, will this entire process be managed by a third-party contractor, as has been the case and as is the case in most advanced infrastructure projects?

[Louis Ranger]

The Government of Quebec is the project manager, le maître d'oeuvre. They have set up an office to manage such projects. Within that process there will be an independent auditor who will be watching every step of the process. So Quebec is leading in terms of managing the project.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

That's different, Monsieur Ranger, from what most advanced infrastructure projects are doing today globally. The government administrations are not managing the projects. What they're doing is holding a pre-tender to hire, for example, SNC-Lavalin or a Spanish consortium equivalent, that then comes in as a third party and manages the entire billion-dollar process. Is this something that's been contemplated? And for value for money, is this not something the Department of Transport ought to be looking at?

[Louis Ranger]

As I said, I think the Government of Quebec has been very progressive. They have passed special legislation to facilitate public-private partnership arrangements. They have a special office managing that. There will be an independent auditor. I'm sure they have access to all the independent resources. To my knowledge, this office is largely made up of government officials. But they will have their own process in place. I know that our people have had extensive discussions with them on how they intend to manage the project, and we're quite satisfied that there will be all the checks and balances that will be sufficient to ensure value for money.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

So from the point of view, then, of these estimates and the supplementary estimates to come, which we'll get to, am I to understand that in large infrastructure projects like this it is not a condition precedent of the Government of Canada that a third-party contractor be called in to administer from a third-party perspective the entire project? It is sufficient now with Transport Canada, in terms of value for money and accountability, that a second government body can administer that billion-dollar fund. Is that right?

[Louis Ranger]

Essentially, yes. But to be clear, we're only in phase one, this $21 million phase; we're at the call for proposals stage. When a proponent will have been retained, when we have the details that will have been negotiated between the Province of Quebec and the private partner, then we'll sit down with the Province of Quebec and sort out the details of how this project will be implemented, dealing with cost overruns and so on. But we're not there yet.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Am I right in concluding then that what I read and what I'm hearing now is that the project is a little more tentative than where it is portrayed publicly?

[Louis Ranger]

No. What you saw is what is unfolding. There's a call for qualifications. There may be a dozen proponents for all we know. There may be several consortia. It will be brought down to probably three. Those three qualified proponents will receive a call for specific proposals. Out of that, one proponent will be selected. And as often happens, even with that selected proponent there are further negotiations that are carried out between the project leader and the selected proponent.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

So on the subject of the management accountability framework elements that you use as a department to identify opportunities to improve the management practices within the department, let me ask you another question. To what extent are you factoring political risk now into your costs, with respect to the funding of large infrastructure projects?

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

I don't think that's a question the witness would have to answer. I think that's a question for the minister.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Not at all.