Evidence of meeting #34 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was investigation.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Merlin Preuss  Director General, Civil Aviation, Department of Transport
Jacques Laplante  Director, Flight Safety, Department of National Defence
Franz Reinhardt  Director, Regulatory Services, Civil Aviation, Department of Transport
Joan Knight  Counsel, Legal Services, Department of Transport
Alex Weatherston  Counsel, Legal Services, Department of National Defence

4:50 p.m.

NDP

Alex Atamanenko NDP British Columbia Southern Interior, BC

Proposed new section 5.392 in clause 12 is meant to ensure the confidentiality of information provided to the Minister of Transport as a result of a process under the Canadian Aviation Document Holder's Safety Management System. New sections, in this case sections 5.395 to 5.398 in Bill C-6, set up the legislative framework for a voluntary reporting program for information on contraventions relating to aviation safety or security. There are provisions intended to provide qualified confidentiality protections and enforcement immunities to persons who report such information.

Please explain how the voluntary reporting provisions contained in clause 12 provide adequate protection against self-incrimination for persons who report information under the safety management system.

In other words, in the case of these people, it would appear that there is a lack of protection. Can you share your comments with us?

4:50 p.m.

Director, Regulatory Services, Civil Aviation, Department of Transport

Franz Reinhardt

You're referring to what you're calling a whistle-blower approach, are you not?

These provisions are far from being whistle-blower provisions. We considered a possible whistle-blower program but realized that under the safety management system we wanted a better cooperation and coordination between employers and employees, and to ensure a good safety culture and good working relationship we realized that whistle-blower provisions were not what was required.

What we're doing here is asking employers, under a set of regulations already in place, to have within their SMS system a voluntary reporting, with a non-punitive policy whereby people can report without fear of reprisal inside the company.

What we're seeing here is that if Transport happens to be auditing or assessing a company and happens to observe information reported by an employee to an employer, that information will be protected from use against either the employer or the employee for enforcement, and also under access to information, if there were....

Supposing we bring the information back to the office—and we are under the access to information purview—it's going to be protected by section 2 of the Access to Information Act. We want people to be free to report to their employer blunders they may have committed, little violations that may lead to a bigger problem. We want them to be able to fix them. That's why we say report it.

If we happen to view this when we examine and audit you, we will not use that type of thing against you and make it available. This is one part of the voluntary reporting.

Later on, in another provision, we are creating what we call a universal voluntary non-reporting program for those people who are not governed by SMS, mainly for the general aviation public or small “other aircraft” maintenance engineers or others, everybody who would want to report information of a violation that was not intentional or that is not something criminal.

There, we are emulating an American system—called the ASRS, aviation safety reporting system, in the States—that was considered very successful, to obtain safety data we would not otherwise obtain because people would not come forward to tell you they had committed a blunder and that some safety aspect was involved.

Now, with this process, the Americans have realized they are getting much information that they can put to good use. They identify it and put it to good use to help advance and improve the safety of the travelling public. That's another system.

So there are two systems there. The main purpose is to obtain as much safety data as we can obtain, because we're in a world where we need that safety data to go the extra mile. As we said earlier, it's not by giving more sanctions that aviation safety will improve.

We've been shown in the past that if you sanction someone and don't help them find the root cause for their having done something wrong, they'll never learn and will keep doing it again; whereas now, with our new systems, we want to give them the opportunity to find the root cause factor and take corrective measures themselves and not do it again. This is the way we are thinking about advancing safety.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Thank you.

Mr. Volpe.

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

Joe Volpe Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

I'd like to follow that up very briefly.

There is a lot of confidence and a lot of faith placed on this voluntary reporting system. As you've just said, unless I misunderstood everything, you indicate that you thought this would not be one of those circumstances that would require whistle-blowing protection because you didn't want the company or the organization to feel it would be penalized if the information came forward, so it would be more receptive to getting information that would be fed into an understanding of the trend line in establishing root causes.

I understand how, in theory, that would work. What if the employer decides it is inconvenient for that information to come forward from an employee and fires the employee? What protections do you envisage in this legislation for such a circumstance?

4:55 p.m.

Director General, Civil Aviation, Department of Transport

Merlin Preuss

There are a couple of ways I can answer this, sir. I'll start by saying that the management system we're putting in place in Transport Canada civil aviation is identical to what we're demanding of the industry. When I talk about reporting cultures and how those systems work, I have a bit of inside and first-hand knowledge. In terms of what is advertised, if you go to our website right now, you'll find a thing called CAIRS in English, the civil aviation issues reporting system. If you're looking for a whistle-blower provision, that's it, because that supercedes anything else. It can be totally confidential. It can be at whatever level the reporter wants.

Today, as we sit, if someone wants to blow the whistle on somebody, they have that system available to them. That's part of the policy, and I don't see it changing. In fact, all I see happening is its use being enhanced. So in terms of what goes on inside a company that's not appropriate, they still have another place to go.

As for what your other question was, I missed the first part of that, Mr. Volpe. I just missed the nuance.

5 p.m.

Liberal

Joe Volpe Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

It all comes down to giving the employee some level of comfort that in the process of reporting, that employee is not putting his or her job at risk. Should the employee get terminated, there is some recourse to a reinstatement or some sort of relief.

5 p.m.

Director General, Civil Aviation, Department of Transport

Merlin Preuss

The answer is that it's difficult to explain how the assessment process works. Frankly, when we go in and do an assessment, we are talking to individuals on the shop floor. We are talking to pilots in the cockpits. We are talking to flight attendants in the back. We will be asking them questions like, “How is this system working? What have you reported? What haven't you reported? Why? If you reported something, we'll follow the life cycle of that report to see if it has complied with the SMS. If you haven't reported it, that's a data point as well, but why didn't you? What's wrong? What are you afraid of?”

That's a basic premise in our assessment tool, in terms of how the reporting system or the front end of the SMS is working. There are several ways that I think that information will come to light.

Let's not forget that what we're dealing with here are the smaller issues. Once there's a major incident, this system is put aside. For example, once you get the coroner involved or the RCMP involved, or where you've hurt somebody when there's an accident, you have the safety board involved. But at that point, the SMS has failed, the whole system has failed, just as it has today.

All we're talking about here is the front-end stuff, to try to get at it before it turns into a Transportation Safety Board accident investigation or, worse still, something requiring the involvement of the coroner. That's where we see the meat.

5 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Mr. Bélanger.

5 p.m.

Liberal

Mauril Bélanger Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON

Actually, maybe we're talking about a bit more, because in this proposal there's quite a bit more authority for Defence after an incident has occurred. Is that correct?

5 p.m.

Director, Flight Safety, Department of National Defence

LCol Jacques Laplante

There shouldn't be more authority for Defence, because we have the same concept. Our accident investigation cannot be used for disciplinary or administrative reasons. All of the information we're gathering is de-identified and we're not putting any names in any of our reports. We're making sure that we de-identify the information.

5 p.m.

Liberal

Mauril Bélanger Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON

But in terms of the amendments proposed in this bill, National Defence will have more authority.

5 p.m.

Director, Flight Safety, Department of National Defence

5 p.m.

Liberal

Mauril Bélanger Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON

Okay. And it's not just pre-emptive, it's after an incident as well. Is that correct?

5 p.m.

Director, Flight Safety, Department of National Defence

LCol Jacques Laplante

Basically, presently we're asking for more powers of investigation, which we don't have for civilian companies or civilian employees. The aim at the end of the day is still to make sure we have a very thorough investigation process.

5 p.m.

Liberal

Mauril Bélanger Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON

I don't know if this is dealt with in the act, but I hope to get an answer.

What would occur? What would happen? Who would have the final authority if we had a situation involving both the military and civilians and there was a conflict in terms of how to proceed? Who would have the final authority to determine how an investigation, for instance, would proceed? Would it be DND or the Minister of Transport?

5 p.m.

Director, Regulatory Services, Civil Aviation, Department of Transport

Franz Reinhardt

Are you talking about an accident?

5 p.m.

Liberal

Mauril Bélanger Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON

I'm talking about any circumstance. If there's a conflict between the two departments, how is it resolved?

5 p.m.

Director, Flight Safety, Department of National Defence

LCol Jacques Laplante

If it's a matter of investigation, if it's a military airplane, we're probably going to be the lead. If it's a military airplane and it happens at a civilian facility, let's say at a civilian airport, because it's a military airplane, we will be the lead. The Transport Safety Board will be a member of our investigation team, and we will be doing a coordinated investigation. If it's a civilian airplane that has an accident at a military facility, as we had some years ago when we had an accident happen in Moose Jaw during an air show.... It was a civilian airplane. The Transport Safety Board was the lead agency and we were part of their investigation.

It is well established within the legislation.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

Mauril Bélanger Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON

My question is this. If there were to be a conflict, and both departments see the situation, who has the authority in the act--more than in the proposals--to determine that this is how we will proceed? Where does that authority lie?

5:05 p.m.

Director, Regulatory Services, Civil Aviation, Department of Transport

Franz Reinhardt

If you look at the application of the provisions, it clearly spells out where the Minister of Transport has authority and where the Minister of National Defence has authority. It shouldn't leave any grey area. If there were one, I guess that our ministers and senior officials would meet and try to....

But if you look at the definition, Mr. Bélanger, it seems very clear.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

Mauril Bélanger Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON

All right, I'll look out for that.

I wanted to ask two things. One is just sort of amusing. There is one power that's been given to the minister about zoning, if I recall, wherein the minister would have the authority to destroy. Does that mean that if that had been in the act before, the Chatham silo would not have been an issue?

5:05 p.m.

Director, Regulatory Services, Civil Aviation, Department of Transport

Franz Reinhardt

The Chatham silo, I remember, was about 15 or 20 years ago. At that time we didn't have the authority.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

Mauril Bélanger Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON

I know. So would that have been the solution then, that the minister would have ordered it destroyed?

5:05 p.m.

Director, Regulatory Services, Civil Aviation, Department of Transport

Franz Reinhardt

It could have been one potential solution—

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

Mauril Bélanger Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON

Well, we have to be mindful of that.