Transport Committee on Feb. 19th, 2007

[Michael Wing]

I mentioned in my presentation that these people have to be able to go outside the company when those safety concerns are not being taken seriously inside the company. But the way the current legislation is being proposed, my concern is that non-disclosure confidentiality is going to be compromised if individuals do decide to go that route.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Mr. Stoss.

[Nick Stoss]

I have a general comment on that. If so, those types of issues would be part of our investigation. If we found an issue like that contributing to the occurrence, we'd definitely report it in our report and make a finding as to the cause or a contributing factor associated with it. That particular investigation is ongoing at this particular point, so I can't comment on it, but our investigation would be looking at all aspects of the company's operation.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

I understand, but it's after the fact. That's the concern.

[Nick Stoss]

That's our mandate. The mandate to ensure the ongoing, everyday safety of that particular company rests with Transport Canada.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Mr. Jean.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll carry on with that conversation.

Isn't SMS supposed to find the problems before they happen, before you have to get involved and start inspecting? Isn't that the idea for SMS?

[Nick Stoss]

That's right, both for ourselves and Transport Canada.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

All right.

Mr. Wing was alluding to the issue of attrition and the reason why SMS is coming on board. It's very worrisome to members of this committee, I'm sure, that what I think I heard him suggesting is that SMS is coming about not as a result of Transport Canada and the government wanting to be safer, but you have evidence that suggests it's because there's attrition, and this is a way to fill the employment gap because such a large number of people are retiring, and there are not enough workers out there.

Is that what you're saying?

[Michael Wing]

Correct.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Could you provide the clerk or the chair with any evidence you have of this? I heard you quote one speech, and certainly it indicates there's a problem with employment, and I'd agree there's a problem with employment across this country. We don't have enough people to fill the jobs, especially in the west and other parts. But do you have any other evidence besides that, which you could provide to the clerk, as to this being the modus operandi behind SMS?

[Michael Wing]

I'm happy to hear that Justice Moshansky's going to be coming to the committee, if I understood the chair correctly. Justice Moshansky will hopefully have an opportunity to talk to you about some of the contributing factors that were in place during the Dryden crash. His review of the industry went far beyond this being a problem related to de-icing. He did take a very thorough look at inspection, and that was a big part of his report.

He found at that time that we were at the beginning of making exactly the same mistakes we made back prior to Dryden. That's why he came out in November of 2006 and very strongly spoke directly about SMS and the number of investigators who are currently in the system.

I have a transcript of his speech here, as well.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

We're familiar with that, and we are going to hear from him. Obviously that's the mandate of the committee. However, what I'm curious about is whether you have any independent evidence besides his. Obviously he'll be providing evidence. Do you have any other evidence that that is their modus operandi, that that is the purpose of SMS? Do you have any other evidence?

[Michael Wing]

I can look through some of my documents.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

If you could, and you could provide that to the clerk, I'd be very interested to see that.

[Michael Wing]

Sure.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Are you aware of what's happening in other countries, such as Australia, to which we seem to be similar in our adoption of the SMS system, as to the success or failure of it?

[Michael Wing]

We do get some anecdotal information from some of our colleagues in other countries. I'd have to say that the feedback we've been getting has been—That's one of the reasons we're taking the position we're taking. They're concerned. The only problem is they feel that mistakes were made too long ago to make any changes.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

In fact, some of the countries, such as Australia, are adopting it, or have adopted a different system, which, I understand, more closely parallels our own. Are you familiar with the success or failure that the U.K. and Australia have had recently, over the last years? We've heard evidence from other witnesses, before you and Mr. Stoss, that it's been tremendously successful. In fact, the safety ratings of these countries have gone up as a result of SMS. And they've found ways to prevent accidents, which seems to make more sense—being preventive rather than fixing it after the fact, when it's too late.

[Michael Wing]

Your question was whether I am aware. I don't have all of the details.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Would you be prepared to provide any other details you have on the success or failure of SMS to the committee?

[Michael Wing]

Certainly. I'd be happy to provide whatever information I can put together.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Are you familiar with plant sites? I'm from Alberta, and just about all of the plant sites that employ thousands of people have SMS systems that work very effectively to prevent accidents. I'm wondering if you or your group have looked into the success or failure of those particular SMS systems, and whether you are prepared to comment on that. My own understanding is that there are thousands of accidents that are avoided. Ongoing, it seems to improve and improve, because it's a self-reporting system that doesn't have any penalty for the employees that report.

[Michael Wing]

One of your colleagues asked me whether we object to SMS. This was kind of the premise of your previous question, and I would have to say no.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Okay. Thank you very much.

Those are all my questions.

Thank you very much.