Evidence of meeting #36 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was transport.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
Mauril Bélanger Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON
Mr. Chairman, I want to shift gears totally here and seek some advice.
As is Monsieur Lévesque, I'm a fairly recent addition to the committee. I'd like to understand a bit more, Mr. Stoss, if you could help me understand, the implications of the additional authority that DND will have in terms of investigations. Could you just elaborate a bit? You talk about accidents that happen on DND property. Then there are the kinds of accidents that might involve civilians and so forth. Who's going to do what if this bill passes and becomes law?
5:15 p.m.
Acting Director General, Investigation Operations, Transportation Safety Board of Canada
Part II is there to establish how DND is going to investigate those specific types of occurrences dealing with military accidents and incidents and their civilians. That's all I can comment upon. Again, their legislation is relatively similar to the safety board's legislation.
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
Mauril Bélanger Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON
So anything that happens at the civilian airports or in non-military areas would be investigated by the safety board.
5:15 p.m.
Acting Director General, Investigation Operations, Transportation Safety Board of Canada
Under our mandate and our legislation, we have a responsibility to establish MOUs with organizations that we may come in contact with during investigations. In that regard, we have a working arrangement between ourselves and the director of flight safety in DND on the conduct of investigations on site, such as a military aircraft and civilian airfield. That guidance allows us to have working relationships established and decisions on who will investigate what portion of the investigation.
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
Mauril Bélanger Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON
So right now, if a civilian were involved in an incident in a military aircraft, who would be responsible for that investigation?
5:15 p.m.
Acting Director General, Investigation Operations, Transportation Safety Board of Canada
Currently the division is based on the type of aircraft being flown. If it were a military aircraft being flown, it would be DND's responsibility to conduct that investigation. If it involved a civilian establishment besides that, we would conduct a coordinated investigation between ourselves and the—
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
Mauril Bélanger Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON
If it were a civilian aircraft on a military base—that might happen sometimes—who would currently do the investigation?
5:15 p.m.
Acting Director General, Investigation Operations, Transportation Safety Board of Canada
It would be based on our working arrangements. We have a matrix that decides who would lead the investigation, but we would conduct a coordinated investigation with DND.
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
Mauril Bélanger Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON
You said in your testimony that part II of the legislation would create conditions that were almost identical...there would be an almost identical manner to your own in terms of investigations. What are the differences that would remain?
5:15 p.m.
Acting Director General, Investigation Operations, Transportation Safety Board of Canada
Our legislation dates back to 1998. Their legislation is coming into force now, so there are some minor differences between the legislation, but not significant ones.
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
Mauril Bélanger Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON
Why not use that opportunity to upgrade yours as well? This is almost omnibus legislation.
5:15 p.m.
Acting Director General, Investigation Operations, Transportation Safety Board of Canada
We will be updating ours as well. The last time we updated was 1998, I believe. We'll be looking at reviewing our legislation again.
On the big difference in legislation being proposed under part II, those occurrences for which they will have additional powers are not investigations we would normally get involved with in a coordinated investigation.
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
Mauril Bélanger Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON
Is it possible that some day we might end up with a situation where there is a bit of a conflict between who should or who wants to carry out an investigation?
5:15 p.m.
Acting Director General, Investigation Operations, Transportation Safety Board of Canada
There's the potential for that, but I believe our working arrangements with DND basically cover all anticipated situations.
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
Mauril Bélanger Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON
Is it conceivable that you could have a situation that hasn't been anticipated by the protocol or MOU you have?
5:15 p.m.
Acting Director General, Investigation Operations, Transportation Safety Board of Canada
If we had the conceivable one we would be amending the agreement we have.
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
Mauril Bélanger Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON
Okay.
So you have no concerns about having a situation where there is a conflict of jurisdiction or a conflict of authority. You believe the protocols that exist currently meet that.
5:15 p.m.
Acting Director General, Investigation Operations, Transportation Safety Board of Canada
The protocol has provisions for us to conduct coordinated investigations with DND.
5:15 p.m.
Bloc
Yvon Lévesque Bloc Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Before 2005, I was a layman about this. When I was elected, in 2004, I had the opportuity to visit some airports and I learned that one could not stay for too long between the fences close to the tarmac. One was asked to leave the place quickly.
In small airports such as the ones at James Bay or in Nunavik, the situation is now somewhat pitiful with luggage around the airplanes and other airplanes landing in the middle of all this. However, that is secondary. I have now learned that there may have been some slackening since 2005 or that fewer inspectors are available.
I have a concern and you may probably be able to put it to rest for me on the basis of your experience. You said a while ago that changes have been made to airplanes and to the building of airplane wings, and so on, and that the licenses are now being issued by Transport Canada. However, a question came to my mind after that. A license has been granted for which there may have been a lack of verification of the plans that were submitted. Maybe someone forgot to do their work.
About this company that is known for building airplane wings, when the time comes to change the wings of an airplane, it is not engineers who are there but laymen. It is people like me who decide to start a company and to change the wings on airplanes with staff that they have trained themselves. And they build wings for other companies. In Trois-Rivières, especially, there is a company that buys wings from them.
When the time comes to put the airplane back in service, is there an inspection? Based on your experience, do you think there should be an inspection before licensing that aircraft to fly again after the changes have been made?
5:20 p.m.
Acting Director General, Investigation Operations, Transportation Safety Board of Canada
Unfortunately, you're asking me to form an opinion on a particular issue that you're raising. All I can again say is that our job is to conduct investigations after we've had a serious incident or accident. The responsibility for commenting on the safety of the operation or regulating operations should be posed to Transport Canada.
5:20 p.m.
Bloc
Yvon Lévesque Bloc Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC
I'm asking you a question, Mr. Stoss.
Before 2005, for example, when a company was granted a license to modify aircrafts, was it usual after the work had been done to have an inspection done by the Department before allowing that aircraft to fly again?
5:20 p.m.
Acting Director General, Investigation Operations, Transportation Safety Board of Canada
I apologize. But again it is a question for Transport Canada, and they are the ones responsible for the regulations and the application.
