Evidence of meeting #39 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was transport.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

4:05 p.m.

As an Individual

Virgil P. Moshansky

Yes, I certainly do. They reflect the situation that happened pre-Dryden. There was a shortage of inspectors. They couldn't carry out their oversight obligations. In the case of Air Ontario, as I mention in my presentation, they were let loose on their own, basically, to set up their own insufficient standards. I could give you a number of examples of deficiencies in what Ontario did, if you are interested.

For example, when they were first applying for certification, they hired an extremely experienced and competent F28 pilot from another airline. He had close to 30,000 hours, most of them on an F28. They brought him in so as to be able to say to Transport Canada, “We have this experienced pilot on our staff who is going to be overseeing our operation.” Of course, they obtained their certification.

Within one month, he was so disgusted with the lack of attention that was being paid to his indication of safety problems that he quit. He quit in disgust. Then, for the next year and a half, Air Ontario had no safety officer in its organization. There was really no safety organization.

Pilots were instructed, for example, to not note aircraft defects in their log books or aircraft manuals, because the entry of some of those defects would have resulted in grounding of the aircraft. What they told them to do was to write these defects down on scraps of paper, which were passed from pilot to pilot, and they were accumulated. And theoretically, I suppose, at some point they intended to look after them.

At one point, two of the pilots, a captain and a first officer, became so concerned with the large number of scraps of paper and defects in these aircraft that they entered them all at once in the operating manual, and the result was the aircraft was grounded. So what happened to them? They were suspended and disciplined for doing so, when they should really have been given a medal.

That's the sort of thing you have to be concerned about.

4:05 p.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

Do you think these elements that are here create a perfect storm that could lead to another tragedy?

4:05 p.m.

As an Individual

Virgil P. Moshansky

I certainly think it's on the horizon, especially if this oversight divesting is allowed to proceed.

4:05 p.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

I'd like to come to the issue around airline audits. Testimony received last week mentioned three decisions that Transport Canada has taken.

One was taken during the federal election back in December 2005, whereby Transport Canada issued Civil Aviation Directive No. 39, which handed over enforcement and investigation to the airlines themselves.

In March 2006 Transport Canada killed the national audit program, which covers the largest airlines and largest airports.

In October 2006—this is from testimony last week—Transport Canada managers abruptly closed all enforcement investigations into safety violations.

So on the issue you have raised about airline audits and in-flight monitoring, it appears that Transport Canada is backing out from all those important elements that contribute to our airline safety.

4:05 p.m.

As an Individual

Virgil P. Moshansky

That's absolutely correct.

I might point out a few other things. Canada's national audit program, even before they suspended it, did not meet the standards of other member states of ICAO.

For example, it has a schedule of one audit every three years for air ops, maintenance, etc., whereas other states have a two-year schedule.

For aerodromes, Canada has an audit schedule of one audit every five years, compared to two years in other member states.

An ICAO safety oversight audit of April 2005 cites Canada for permitting a two-year pilot proficiency check, under exemption to regulatory requirements under CARs 703 and 704, which called for one year, and which do not meet the international standard of six months. This could put the bilateral agreements that Canada has with other nations in peril, in my view.

4:10 p.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

So we are in widespread violation of this international agreement?

4:10 p.m.

As an Individual

Virgil P. Moshansky

I don't know if it's widespread, but it's certainly--

4:10 p.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

Significant.

4:10 p.m.

As an Individual

Virgil P. Moshansky

They're examples of violation, in my opinion--and this isn't just my opinion.

4:10 p.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

We essentially have had Transport Canada gutting the functions that are supposed to be its responsibility. Do you believe that's a reckless action?

4:10 p.m.

As an Individual

Virgil P. Moshansky

I'm not sure how to characterize it. It seems to me that it has its basis in underfunding. They don't have the funds to carry out the regulatory oversight, and I think they've come out and pretty well admitted that. They've looked around for places to slash in order to meet the budgets that are given to them, and this was a simple place to go. You could cut a lot out of the funding by cutting out the requirement for regulatory oversight.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Mr. Fast is next.

February 28th, 2007 / 4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you for attending here today.

You have obviously reviewed Bill C-6 and also the Aeronautics Act; you'd be an expert in that area.

4:10 p.m.

As an Individual

Virgil P. Moshansky

I'm not sure I'm an expert, but I've looked at them.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC

Have you had a chance to review the regulations issued in May 2005, which introduced safety management systems into the aviation industry in Canada?

4:10 p.m.

As an Individual

Virgil P. Moshansky

I think I have.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC

Have you also had a chance to review the ICAO standard safety management system on which the Canadian one is based?

4:10 p.m.

As an Individual

Virgil P. Moshansky

Yes. In fact, I have it here.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC

Would you agree that it is a significant improvement in how we address the issue of air safety?

4:10 p.m.

As an Individual

Virgil P. Moshansky

Yes. I agree that SMS is a significant improvement. I've said that.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC

All right.

In terms of suggestions in your testimony that perhaps there's a massive dismantling of the inspection and enforcement system in Canada, I'd like to quote back the words that you used. You state that “Transport Canada management have publically admitted” that “cost cutting is again in vogue at Transport Canada”. You go on to say that:

Regulatory oversight is not being merely reduced, except for limited focused audits, and it is being systematically dismantled under Bill C-6.

Could you first of all define what you mean by “limited focused audits”? It seems to be very restrictive.

4:10 p.m.

As an Individual

Virgil P. Moshansky

It's right in the Transport Canada material. I can dig it up for you, possibly.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC

If you could.

4:10 p.m.

As an Individual

Virgil P. Moshansky

They talk about focused audits.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC

They talk about focused audits, but not “limited” focused audits.