Evidence of meeting #40 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was transport.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Daniel Maurino  Coordinator, Flight Safety and Human Factors, International Civil Aviation Organization

4:15 p.m.

Bloc

Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC

Basically, that's what we want. We want a guarantee of some kind that international standards will be respected. If that means incorporating into the act a parallel regulatory oversight regime, then so be it. I think you will go along with that, even if we were to make some changes. It's the committee's job to amend the bill and that's what we want to do. We want to try and improve the bill so as to maintain a regulatory oversight system and to ensure that the safety management system operates effectively.

Do you agree with our proposed course of action?

4:15 p.m.

Coordinator, Flight Safety and Human Factors, International Civil Aviation Organization

Capt Daniel Maurino

Yes, sir. I certainly agree, but I'd again like to warn the committee that it is important that the ICAO standards give considerable leeway to states in terms of implementation. They are generic because we need to take into consideration the different possibilities and constraints of an audience and membership that go from states with resources, such as the U.S. and Canada, to Montenegro. These are very generic standards. There is leeway for states to implement these standards in ways that are appropriate to their resources and limitations.

Furthermore, this is a word of caution regarding the audits. You might end up with a different file because you've done better than the standards.

I'll give this committee one specific example. Annex 6 clearly indicates that flight crew members should undergo periodic training every six months. The Federal Aviation Administration devised a program, which is called the advanced qualification program. It is a state-of-the-art training system that allows airlines in very controlled environments to have their crews trained once a year. It is a superior system, and it's so complex and sophisticated that it has only been implemented in a few carriers within the United States.

But the fact remains that those carriers cycle their flight crews through the training system once a year, not twice, as annex 6 imposes. Even when the system is superior, in the audit of the FAA, it was marked as a difference.

Not meeting standards does not necessarily mean substandard performance. It simply means you're not ticking a box.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Mr. Storseth.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Storseth Conservative Westlock—St. Paul, AB

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much for coming forward today.

To your knowledge, what other countries have implemented SMS, safety management systems?

4:15 p.m.

Coordinator, Flight Safety and Human Factors, International Civil Aviation Organization

Capt Daniel Maurino

To the extent of Canada, no one has.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Storseth Conservative Westlock—St. Paul, AB

Are there countries that have already implemented the system but not to this extent?

4:15 p.m.

Coordinator, Flight Safety and Human Factors, International Civil Aviation Organization

Capt Daniel Maurino

There are countries moving in that direction, the United States most notably. States will now have to move in that direction because of the ICAO standard. As we speak, other than Canada and the U.S., that's it.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Storseth Conservative Westlock—St. Paul, AB

So we will be one of the first countries, should this legislation go forward, to actually achieve that new standard.

4:15 p.m.

Coordinator, Flight Safety and Human Factors, International Civil Aviation Organization

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Storseth Conservative Westlock—St. Paul, AB

One of the aspects that your organization looks at is the minimization of the adverse effects of civil aviation towards the environment. Correct?

4:20 p.m.

Coordinator, Flight Safety and Human Factors, International Civil Aviation Organization

Capt Daniel Maurino

I'm sorry. I don't understand what kind of environment you are talking about.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Storseth Conservative Westlock—St. Paul, AB

In reducing emissions.

4:20 p.m.

Coordinator, Flight Safety and Human Factors, International Civil Aviation Organization

Capt Daniel Maurino

You mean environmental?

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Storseth Conservative Westlock—St. Paul, AB

Yes.

4:20 p.m.

Coordinator, Flight Safety and Human Factors, International Civil Aviation Organization

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Storseth Conservative Westlock—St. Paul, AB

Your organization looks at this, correct?

4:20 p.m.

Coordinator, Flight Safety and Human Factors, International Civil Aviation Organization

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Storseth Conservative Westlock—St. Paul, AB

There are some amendments in this legislation that would go towards this. Could you comment on how these amendments would have perceived benefits?

4:20 p.m.

Coordinator, Flight Safety and Human Factors, International Civil Aviation Organization

Capt Daniel Maurino

I'm sorry. I'm by no means involved in environmental issues.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Storseth Conservative Westlock—St. Paul, AB

Not a problem.

It's my understanding that this legislation also brings forward amendments that go above and beyond and would make the Canadian civil aviation sector even more green than it already is.

I'd also like to talk to you a little bit about the process of which you were speaking earlier. Unfortunately, many of our colleagues have decided to talk about the process in a negative light, but I think it's important to talk about this in a positive light, the process of change going towards the SMS system and how Transport Canada is doing it in a very positive fashion by actually overlaying it and interlocking it with the regulations that are already in place.

Do you see this as a positive?

4:20 p.m.

Coordinator, Flight Safety and Human Factors, International Civil Aviation Organization

Capt Daniel Maurino

I think it's the only possible way to move forward. Aviation hates revolutionary change. Throughout our history we have followed, with a religious fervour, evolutionary change. So it means you build on top of your existing structures.

We've only tried to introduce revolutionary change in aviation a couple of times, and the consequences were terrible, so we shouldn't do that again, ever.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Storseth Conservative Westlock—St. Paul, AB

So the way you see it, we're doing it precisely the way it needs to be done, slowly and methodically over top of the current regulations.

4:20 p.m.

Coordinator, Flight Safety and Human Factors, International Civil Aviation Organization

Capt Daniel Maurino

To the extent of my knowledge, yes.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Storseth Conservative Westlock—St. Paul, AB

And it is your recommendation that this will definitely make the Canadian aviation system a safer system?

4:20 p.m.

Coordinator, Flight Safety and Human Factors, International Civil Aviation Organization

Capt Daniel Maurino

If SMS delivers the potential, if we can unlock the potential that SMS holds, yes.